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Creating a Law Firm Marketing Budget

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Lawyers With Purpose

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0:04 Roslyn Drotar

Hello and welcome to Lawyers -- Hi! And welcome to Lawyers with Purpose Marketing Roundtable. Today's topic of conversation is going to be about creating a law firm marketing budget. So I have Laney and Molly on the call with me as well and we are very excited to be hosting today on Blog Talk Radio. We will also have the recording up on our member's website so that anybody who misses the call can listen to it at a later time that is convenient for them. I just wanted to do some light housekeeping. If you do join the call and if you can mute your line -- you're using your own mute features, we actually don't have control over muting the line for you. So if you're just going to be in listen only mode, if you could please use that feature on your phone. This call will be -- and not only live but recorded as well. Saying that we do want everybody to participate just as much as possible time in and ask questions and comment and participate. And so I'd like to take and go ahead and get started and I do see that we had two people joining the call. If you can announce yourself and let us know who you are.

1:29 Susan Hunter

Susan Hunter.

1:31 S?


1:31 S?

Hello. Welcome.

1:34 S?

Hi Susan! Welcome.

1:37 S?

I don't have a mute button on my phone.

1:39 Roslyn Drotar

Okay. Thanks for letting me know.

1:41 S?

(Crosstalk) just really quiet.

1:43 S?

And I have your number here so if I knew it you I can put it on hold.

1:55 Diana

Hello. Hello.

1:57 Roslyn Drotar

Hello. Welcome to the call.

1:59 Diana

Thank you.

2:01 Roslyn Drotar

Oh. You're welcome. Who's this?

2:02 Diana

This is Diana.

2:05 Roslyn Drotar

Hi! Diana.

2:07 Diana


2:08 Roslyn Drotar

Welcome and looks like we have one more person out there. One more person out there, you announce yourself.

2:18 Marcy

It's probably just me, guys, its Marcy.

2:21 S?


2:22 Roslyn Drotar

Okay, Marcy. Okay. So, today's call on creating a marketing budget, when Molly, Laney and I were initially talking about this call, we really wanted everyone to participate and put piece of paper or pull out an Excel spreadsheet and create your individual marketing budget. A good starting point might just be to jot down all the things that you're currently doing and how much it's costing you and just writing it down, each commitment that you have, who's responsible for it and the dollar amount that's associated with that commitment that you have. And so, for example, it might be your newspaper ad that you're running or an ad that you want to run and finding out what your bottom line will be for that commitment. I will be going over a list of some recommended marketing -- traditional marketing in a law firm. So having a pen and paper out, and for some of those ideas just to -- even if you're not currently doing it, making a note of it and looking into how much it would cost so that you can potentially put that into your budget and dog ear some funds to put into the pot and figure out if it was something that you wanted to do. So, what is your marketing budget and how much should it be? And an old rule of thumb for a budget is to have the amount that you spend on your marketing per year range from 1% to 10% of yourself. And that can depend on a few factors. First, how established your firm is. If you're just getting started in your practice, you probably will spend more money. You're building your brand, you're getting your name out into the community and you're investing as much time and as money as you possibly can on marketing in the first few years.

4:31 Roslyn Drotar

You really, really have to spend as much as you can afford and I just want to put emphasis there on afford, because a lot of times when you're first starting out your practice, it's not even necessarily an amount of money if you are going to be spending time, you need to really make sure that you're committed to your RMS. If you don't have the time you need or you don't have the money, you need to be spending the time building that -- to get the attraction. And then of course like anything else...

5:06 Diana

Go ahead. I want to ask a few questions.

5:07 Roslyn Drotar

No, go ahead.

5:08 Susan Hunter

I just want to clarify. So, you're saying if you're just getting started out that it should be anywhere from 1 to 10% and we know in working with attorneys that are still a practitioners just getting started within their practice, I would say on average when I asked people what their monthly revenue goals are for still little entrepreneurs getting started they take -- they will be divided with $10,000 a month.

5:35 Marcy

Just getting started. So, are you saying any where between $100 to $1,000 a month allocated for a marketing budget?

5:43 Roslyn Drotar

Yeah. Yes. Absolutely, that's a great, great place to start because we really want to talk about how much can you really afford and that might be the perfect place to start. So you don't want to spend yourself into a whole especially today when there's a lot of other avenues for you as far as, you know, can build relationship or really, really -- dig into the social part of it that is -- there's not really any money involved in that part of it. So, if you look at it from a place of I want to generate $3,000 a month, you're looking at about spending $900 dollars a month on your marketing. Did that answer your question?

6:25 Marcy

Well, no. Not really. Because if you want to generate $3,000 a month, that's a little different than the 1% to 10%, so I just want to clarify then so many numbers that have been thrown out there. I have heard 30%, it takes about 30% to generate one lead. So, if you have a goal of say $10,000 a month that you should be spending -- now again in ideal, ideal world about $3,000 a month on marketing, I personally don't know any law firm that is spending and generating that much in the beginning when started out. So, you're saying if you want to be generating $3,000 a month and let's stick with the $10,000 because that's an average.

7:10 Roslyn Drotar


7:12 Marcy

What are you saying people should in ideal world, the spending cause -- what do you think?

7:19 Roslyn Drotar

About $3,000. I personally feel it's about $3,000.

7:23 Marcy

Okay. So 30%.

7:24 S?

So 30%?

7:25 Roslyn Drotar


7:26 Marcy

Yeah. Not 1% to 10%.

7:27 Roslyn Drotar

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes, you're absolutely right. Thank you for clarifying.

7:33 Marcy

Okay. So, you're saying about $3,000 which is a good chunk of change for a new solopreneur that may or may not even have available credit for them. So I just want you all to kind of take what we're saying and implement what works for you. You might say $3,000 -- know way, know how. It's not even -- I don't even have the available resources for that right now. So, that's why we're having this call today is for you to put, like, Roslyn said pen to paper and see I don't have that opportunity to spend $3000 right now. So, what realistically can you commit to -- and I just want to put this kind of huge, giant disclaimer up there because the goal of this call is for you to be completely in touch with the brutal facts, they are reality in committing to something. We're going to send you a sample marketing budget plan in excel format, very, very easy that is just kind of a template for you to work from. The goal is that you do commit to something and that you are brutally honest with your current reality in what you can invest in and if it's $10,000 a month, if it's $100, if it's $300, if it's, $3,000. Listening to what Roslyn's going be walking us through today that when she is talking about retail and marketing communications and things to that nature, branding and you cannot invest in it, you know that you really need to be perking up on what we're talking about what equity, activity. I just want to clarify that.

9:13 Roslyn Drotar

Yeah. I know. Thank you and I love that clarification. Go ahead, Lenny.

9:16 Lenny

This is Lenny. I think the example we talk about yesterday or the analogy of the kind of like a seesaw. So, if you don't have necessarily the dollars to put in, then you know as that goes down accordingly. That's why equity in a relationship has to go up.

9:33 Roslyn Drotar

Uh-huh. Yeah. And I love that clarification and that's absolutely spotted on. And so when we go over somebody's example on where you'll be spending, if you can't commit to dollars and cents in these categories then what are you doing with your relationships that are out there. So we're talking about your advertising, whether it'd be in a newspaper ad or in some local community paper, you know, at the church, that sort of thing -- any print ad. We're talking about client appreciation, collateral materials -- anything that you are putting your name and your brand on to get out and hand out. Your CRM systems or your database, time matters -- that sort of thing. The events and workshops that you' re putting on -- all of your branding cost, mailing, communication -- that sort of thing, website design and maintenance, and one of the biggest is your marketing role that you all have in your firm -- the person in your firm that is -- that true role of a relationship management coordinator. So, these are all things that should be in your marketing budget and should have a dollar attached to figure -- a commitment to. But if you can't, then I just want you to ask yourself what are we gonna do with our sweat equity to build our relationships and to give our marketing attraction. And though...

11:20 Susan Hunter

I'm sorry to interrupt you. Since this is a small group, it is okay to ask you a couple of questions?

11:24 Lenny

Absolutely. It's a roundtable so go for it.

11:28 Susan Hunter

You mentioned the database as a marketing expense and I'm very curious about that. Can you say more about that?

11:37 Roslyn Drotar

Yes, absolutely.

11:38 Susan Hunter

How is -- how is time matter's marketing?

11:42 Roslyn Drotar

It's capturing all of your leads, all of your relationships, all of your next actions and you need to be building and keeping that mining, if you will database so that you can market it to it. Most firms don't look at it this way, but you have a probably a good number of people in there that haven't -- haven't come forward yet. That doesn't mean that we don't continue to market to them. So, it's still a tool and it's something we still need to work in your marketing. It's something that we also to need to help to quantify what's working and what isn't working.

12:20 Marcy

Okay. I'm on clear. I don't know if you are still Susan, what would that be title? There's a line item, Roslyn.

12:25 Roslyn Drotar

To me, it is a -- it is necessary to quantify, to be able to extract the people that in your database that you can market to.

12:40 Marcy

So, what would you call that in a line item? When I'm looking in, like, for example, there's a marketing budget that we created. Is that under customer acquisition and retention? Is it under newsletter? Is it -- where would you put that?

12:55 Roslyn Drotar

I would put that under customer retention and acquisition.

12:58 Marcy


12:59 Roslyn Drotar

I think that's the perfect place for it.

13:01 Lenny

So, it's really necessary the database, Susan, so to speak unless you're paying per lead or you're paying -- for example, if you're using infusion jobs or some of those marketing databases that many attorneys do use in regards do they get charged per e-mail or if you're using constant contacts or something that nature when you're getting charged for each campaign that you would use it under your existing databases. Is that what you're saying, Roslyn? It's not the purchasing that time matters, I want to put that in a marketing budget.

13:36 Roslyn Drotar

Yeah. Yes. You're right. And thank you for clarifying. You're right. No. It is more just -- you're making sure that you have that as a well-oiled machine whatever time it takes to put in to a client database to keep it maintained as well as updated. Sometimes you have to purchase updates to keep that running. But it is a very important part of your marketing. It's capturing every thing that's coming into the firm.

14:03 Marcy

Yeah. And again, you just have to be careful with the database on because some people are not using -- I'd say the majority, 90% of them are not using it as a marketing tool or then a client relations tool and as far as, like, Time Matters or Gold Mine or Amicus or some of those avenues, I would see that -- and again play with that how you want but I don't see the database that is a vehicle or the function to expel or to deliver some marketing message.

14:41 Roslyn Drotar


14:42 Lenny


14:44 Roslyn Drotar

Okay. Got it.

14:45 Lenny

Does that clarify you, Susan?

14:48 Susan Hunter

It does. It does. Thank you.

14:50 Roslyn Drotar

Uh-huh. Sure.

14:51 Susan Hunter

Sorry to take you off track Ross.

14:53 Lenny

No. It's a great question.

14:55 Roslyn Drotar

No. It's okay. Yeah.

14:56 Lenny

Because if you're talking about a newsletter or something like that nature if you're using the integrity marketing or you're using...

15:02 Roslyn Drotar


15:03 Lenny

...bizhub or some of those different ones that are out there. That's absolutely would be a line item under that, you know, customer retention and lead generation.

15:14 Roslyn Drotar


15:15 Lenny


15:20 Roslyn Drotar

Yeah. So -- and just go -- coming out of those hard cost items then going back to what we were saying earlier is if you're unable to commit to those, you need to be thinking about the things you can do out in your community and spending your time doing things and can include your social media, it can include sitting down and writing some fantastic contents to put into those materials or to put up on your website to keep it fresh and more inviting so it's not just a stagnant ad and just going out shaking hands and meeting people eyeball to eyeball.

16:06 Lenny

So, as far as a marketing budget. Where would that fit? Shaking hands, eyeball to eyeball?

16:12 Roslyn Drotar

Well -- and that's a great question because there wouldn't be a line item. But if you can't afford to be doing all of these other things that we would line item and a marketing budget, you need to just be out there spending time investing and building relationships and getting yourself out there meeting people.

16:34 Lenny

Okay. Great. And I just want to be kind of clear and, Ross, I'm going to push back hard and heavy dissect when you use these terminologies because I know people, if they don't understand it and they kind of shut down and not do anything because I want to be really clear. So again the goal is that you do walk out with a marketing budget plan that does work for you. So, when you're saying using words like contents and you're using words like social media, what does that mean for -- and I will just take our average attorney that we deal with day-to-day that comes in here. One primary attorney that owns the business maybe anywhere from 1 to 5 to 14 -- let's just even say 1 to 14, what is the average attorney starting out and this person is responsible for everything, answering the phone, doing the production, what have you, maybe so or maybe not the marketing. So what does that mean when you're talking about, you don't necessarily have the $3,000 a month to invest in this marketing so you know, it's going to be your blood, sweat and tears which time is money. So when you're talking about social media, what have you in all of these marketing so to speak is responsible and on the attorney -- how realistic is it or what's the make or break of that one you are investing your blood, sweat and tears and your time? You might be paying, I don't know, $10, $15, $20, $30, a $100 a month for some of these little things, setting up a blog I assume that's what you need when you use the word "content" and I'd like for you to just clarify what you mean by that word and what you mean by "social media", but how realistic is it for an attorney and what are some tips, techniques and what is your coaching for attorneys that it is just them and they don't have the money and they don't have the time, but they need to market because the phone ain't ringing.

18:41 Roslyn Drotar

Great. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And I wanted just kind of back up a little bit too because what we don't want to fall into is that place where we don't have the time right now and we don't have the money -- we're behind on production because of maybe prior marketing efforts and so we go through these hills and valleys because then you're going to get through all that and you had this fantastic, you know, revenue month and then all of the sudden the marketing had stopped because you, you know, we're busy we didn't have time in day and so then you start ramping up marketing again. So, at all cost we really need to be consistent -- consistency is the key and so making sure that you're putting intentional time in your week in your month so that you can be touching this and feeling it and present in it constantly. That's going to be the key to making it successful. So, if you are not finding the time in your day now as we're having this conversation, I want you to look at your weekly focus or look at your monthly focus and make sure that you're getting that time in there that you can commit to. And as far as contents goes, I'm a firm believer that, you know, one of the essential marketing tools that we all can do right now that is really the cheapest is social -- your social media. Getting out there and engaging in Linkedln, Facebook and Twitter and blogging. And if you have really great content, it can be worth this wait in Gold if you're creating a place where people are coming to you as the go-to-guy. So, it doesn't need to be a lot. It can be little technique -- little things that you share with your client on a regular basis.

20:43 Roslyn Drotar

So, sometimes you might want to look back and say, "What's the number one question that people ask me when they find out that I'm an estate planning attorney" or "What's the number one question that people asked me when I get in the room with them one on one for a vision meeting" and just make a simple blog about it. And coming up with maybe even a serious the top10 questions that I could ask and just posting that to your blog and feeding it through your social. Does that make sense?

21:19 Lenny

Questions, comments for anybody on the line?

21:25 Susan Hunter

I don't understand how having a Facebook page makes my business more successful.

21:32 Roslyn Drotar

And that's a great question then that's so hard to quantify, Susan, it really is. But I guarantee you that people are out there looking for people in their industry -- in your industry and they're finding others. So what I like to tell people is there's this huge, huge area out there in space and maybe even visualize that as if it's a big piece of free real estate and everybody can stake their claim in it. And so you need to be present and you need to be out there and you need to state your claim in it. And you can do that through a firm, Facebook page or you can do that through your own Facebook page and get people to know you both personally and professionally and blend those two worlds. But if you just want people to know this is what we're doing in the firm, you can do that too. Just sharing with the people when your workshops are, sharing with them your blogging content, connecting with your referral sources and your clients and your perspective clients through that media, the numbers that people are using for social media is staggering. (Crosstalk)

22:48 Lenny

Go ahead. (Crosstalk) I'm totally digging myself here, but I literally remember when I was working in a law firm. I was the having the conversation, Why do we need a website? What is this? Why do we really need this? We have a brochure because it's the new thing for people to, you know, create their own website and every company to have a website and now it's just a given, no one questions that. We can all quantify the results to that and track it. So sometimes when things are on the upswing you cannot sell like, quantify the result because that's not there yet but you know that is the way things are going and things are working in that area. But it's just funny because I remember literally I am having the same conversation with WebSiteNOW, I mean look where is our website.

23:35 Roslyn Drotar


23:36 S?

Is it okay if I add something?

23:38 Roslyn Drotar

Yes. Please.

23:40 Marionnette

This is Marionette from Heritage and we're kind of going through the same process of why do we need this or what's going to be the most advantageous and I've been doing a lot of research on how our perspective clients find information and doing internet research is growing drastically among like 50 to 60 year olds who are becoming internet savvy so that they're going blog on and they are going to say I want an estate planner in Indiana, and not only then is that possible for your website to come up and your Facebook page can come up and your Linkedln account comes up and that really adds a lot of credibility. And Facebook is also kind of, like, an online poster so you might see a poster for say a charity walk that you're doing. That poster that you see in Panera is not necessarily going to get you to go to that charity walk, but when you see it and you're going to that event and you see that poster and you say, Hey, I'm going to that, or That was the great event. I had a really great time. It kind of helps to solidify the meaning of that relationship that you're up there in your community and what you represent. It's not, like, everyone is saying, it's not very miserable but there's a lot that can be generated from it.

25:07 Wendy

And just as a business owner as well, this is Wendy speaking Susan it will merit to say that it kind of popped into my head is this obviously the statistics such as my personal incidental experience but I had two companies the Outsource Resource and then "Yes Check" which the work that Molly and I do and both of them have their respective Facebook pages and I literally -- I can't say which Outsource Resource that I have or had a new contact -- contact me but people I knew and were connected with me there but absolutely see me posting stuff and then contact me and say, I need to talk to you. I'm tired of doing this funding stuff, because I'm constantly in their face so it is huge connector for people who may have already know me but weren't working with me yet. And just because they would see things I would post and they're, like that's it. I've had a horrible day funding it I need to contact you, so it definitely supported my marketing effort to people that I would meet at conferences and what not. I think I got a lot more results from the workout that I was already doing with the marketing perspective and the dollars I am already spending I am having at there and then with "Don't Be a Yes Check" I have literally met new people because other people, when attorney and I maybe having a conversation be at Facebook or in a public form and then they would comment on something I posted and I would answer them back and other people who weren't even on my page would read it because I have obviously very open to public because it's more of a marketing page and then they would start talking to me and, like, who are you? Oh, you help with hiring? What is this? And they would start talking to me so I have actually -- I can't say someone to call on there and searched for certain terms and found me but they definitely by connecting have noticed me -- not me but the company and found out who we were and what we did. So, you know, you definitely have to decide how much time because I think Facebook -- anything on the internet is just blogging, Facebook, anything like that -- it can fill out the amount of time you allot it. Because, you know, it's literally unlimited content up there. So, you definitely want to say how much time I am going to allocate to putting content on here, but I think it's worthwhile.

27:14 Molly

And let me just chime in both of -- all of those comments. You know, I had recently, attended a SEO breakout session at a national venue two weeks ago and I think it was the most phenomenal easy to still down social media -- the internet marketing for dummies course I've ever taken and it was just absolutely wonderful. And just to give you some context, if you don't even want to see how social media affects my business or impacts my business that makes a difference if nothing else and it's pretty consistent across the board. The first thing you should do is blogging period, the end of the story. And so you don't even have to put into different categories of Facebook, Linkedln, social media what have you, if you just blog, it's going to be like a hand grenade. And the realm of this whole internet marketing thing and meetings that number one if it's connected to your website you're going to be updating your website. The common rule of thumb is that you should be updating your website every seven days. When I asked people what they're doing from marketing they say "I have a website", and website is not marketing if it's stagnant and it's not -- you're not constantly updating and it's not interactive and it doesn't give a tremendous amount of call it to action on it. So, it would take care of this conversation calls "website" is marketing -- the other thing is that you can push your blog out with just social media and if it's the only thing that you do to get started and we have many past webinars on social media, we'll continue to have those setting in the time. But if it is the only thing that you do which is going to take care of number one is the conversation called social media; number two, _29:11_ conversation called website; number three, is that ad conversation called content or blogging.

29:18 Molly

You're nailing all three at the same time if you're just writing a simple blog and you're doing that in a minimum of two to three days a week. And I'll give you a very quick story with even Lawyers at Purpose we have said to make a commitment to blog five days a week every single day. And we break it up, granted there's many of us on the team. So we're all kind of doing our piece, but even if we're just taking articles that we like and we're breaking one to two sentences and saying this is just a sentence if article on time management or conversation we're very passionate about it's a must read that's considered a blog. And actually it's one of the greatest strategies in blogging repurposing somebody else's content. But when I came in this morning, I had five requests for -- I wrote a blog on the "Power of Catch Focuser" and I said if you'd like to receive the complementary copy please do an e-mail and I'll be happy to share the tool with you so we could capture leads, the names and I had five unique people alone today and I think I wrote that blog three weeks ago. And we are pushing that out to anybody that contacts us plus anybody that has been through any of our past programs or attended our past webinars or anything that we're doing. So just that alone not only that but now I'm saying that is liking us on Facebook because if they want to follow us on various other things that we're doing. So, I did this real quick tip and a way to easily just fill it down if there's nothing that you do but blogging and then connecting into your website and social media and other avenue. It's a wonderful way to kind of take care of three of five things with one activity.

31:12 Roslyn Drotar

Yeah, thank you Molly and I just... (Crosstalk)

31:13 Molly

Listen to social media discussion (laughter).

31:16 Susan Hunter

No, this is house score so.

31:19 Roslyn Drotar

And you know what Susan... (crosstalk) if you can afford you know just going back to where that started from. Is it you can afford to put dollars you know in your line item. This is a fantastic way as you know spending your time and I just wanna highlight too as well. The age group between 50 and 70 is the fastest growing age group right now. With Facebook, these people are finally hearing about it and getting it and they want to commit with their grandchildren. And so, you know there -- the fastest growing -- that were seeing in Facebook right now and at the same time Google has started Indexing Facebook Pages. So, that why you're gonna start seeing that something looking for you in your area and they can find you even through your Facebook page, then that's good.

32:12 S?

And somebody did join that's playing music I don't know if you're in a cell phone...

32:19 Roslyn Drotar

If you could mute your line. Great and then I just wanted to talk as well while we're talking about all the stuff about you know what we're gonna do with our marketing is -- you know we really need to be making sure that we are trucking the performance on everything that we're doing. So, regardless of how you're spending your time or you money you know once you're starting too shall out your dollar and your time. It's really critical to follow the performance and how it's all playing out and being diligent and tracking your referral sources and making sure that the client services coordinator is asking every time you got a new customer. You know how they referred to you. How they found you. And tracking that in your database and making sure that you can report with what's working and what isn't working and so if you're getting more customer you know through relationship building or through your workshop or the context from the people you know that are reading and following your blog, then keeps spending your time and your money on those efforts. But if more of your ideal customers are finding you from you know print ads or local papers, then more time there. Just figuring out what works and don't be afraid to tweak at a little bit. You know you really wanna give anything that you do. You know six to nine months consistently being present in anything that you commit too and don't change things but it's okay to make a little tweak that you think might make a difference like changing the time of a workshop and Lenny had brought this at when we we're taking about in comparing for this call and may be okay to change the time of the workshop but if you're gonna tweak something don't tweak the day, the time and the location all at once.

34:22 S?

Because consistency is the key and you really truly need to make sure that you're giving it a six to nine month commitment. At least nine months with anything that is relationship building. And it is __34:41__ I think that's really important to highlight I've have an conversation with the law firm today I know that it is vey relevant to many of the law firm who has been worked with, whether going I need to filled up my upcoming workshop and they like starting __34:55__ some retail marketing and __34:57__ just knowing that you may be the adulteration that puts in adult there or there's a mailer and gets a huge response of the first one and that's wonderful keep __35:05__ but don't bad on it because that's been a normal response and normality takes a period of time of people receiving your information and seen it to get the response that you want it. So, again you really do have to commit to about to six month _35:20__ you know that when you're looking that you're budgeting to know, I am in this for six months and I may tweak something after that to make it work better and try to get a better result that's my budgetary perspective to know that you in it for the long run. I think also people look to their __35:36__ the quick fix in it unfortunately not usually the case.

35:48 S?

Yes absolutely.

35:55 S?

So, just tracking and making sure that it is working and then finally one of the things that you all know and we talk to you so much about our implementation calls is to follow at, making sure that you have -- to support that you need because again we're talking about the money that you're spending and we we're putting the dollars out there and we're getting the phone to ring. We need to make sure that we have to follow up to support the things that were committing to out the industry. It is hands down the most important next tasks when you're creating your marketing budget and where you're gonna spend your money. Figuring out who is gonna support you with that and making sure you have that person there supporting you and doing the follow up it's necessary to keep the ball rolling. I think that the great point to highlight as well. Again, I was seeking with another law from that was looking at __36:57__some you know very harder in dollar to what to do in some advertising. She wanted to do a mailer and we will really wrap it down and look that. If she does had anyone supporting her on the follow up and we decided, but if she took that money and brought someone on board to do the follow up she get can more results from the marketing that she is already doing because she has a lists of people who indicated they wants to come in and met with her after coming into a workshop, but she has not been able to consistently follow up with them. So, when we really wrap it down and pull it apart near like it was he do a mailer and he get more people coming into your workshop but she still don't have that support structure that person to get them and to meet with you. You really confound you in that problem and you're not going to see more result. So, it's better to put those dollars if you're going to curved them out and to get in to someone to really help you get the most results from the marketing you're already doing. But I think it's a really important point to look at. There are a lot of people again what -- you know more as they __37:58__ bottom seat at the workshop but we're really wanna make sure we're getting the most from those people that in their seat.

38:04 S?

Uh-um, absolutely.

38:08 S?

And that's why you're tracking is so important because it such a diagnostic. One is great to make sure nothing falls to the crack but it such a diagnostic to look and say okay have these many people coming in to workshop and we're they coming from that we know it's working but also we say how many people are going forward into a meeting and then how many people are going forward and hiring me. So, that you know if I have a bunched of people coming into the workshop but they are really low conversion coming into the meeting I don't necessarily need this to spend more money getting more people in a workshop. I need to look at what happening that people aren't going forward in the process. I either it's qualify or something in your presentation or your call of action that it is not working that you need to correct or improve upon.

38:55 S?

Yeah, I loved -- that's an important part just to truck every step of the way because you're absolutely right. You know you wanna spend more time or more money feeling bust in seat. If that's part of his working it's in conversion.

39:08 S?

Yeah, I mean I say this with the utmost respect as again as a business owner, but I think sometimes we needs raw dollars at marketing very harder and you know dollars that had been carved out and we throw it with the marketing tickets going to stick overall problem with cash flow or growing our business without really do in a good diagnostic -- on ourselves and looking at what we are spending those dollars on why and do we even need to spend more dollars on marketing or just stamping out about the process that was ignoring because we aren't breaking it down and tracking it and looking at it or that part might be confronting for us to the way that look at and see why am I not __39:44__ do I need to charge more some of the other questions like the child away from self included. And that's way I like this conversation rather than I'm so glad that you're leading it because it's going to make -- let's put on paper what are we committing this __39:49__ marketing versus when we get uncomfortable and nervous about something just throwing dollars and kind of that black hole of marketing.

40:10 S?

Yeah, say more about that Lenny, as far as what we should we looking out at before we grow money at market.

40:19 S?

I like to always when I talk with the law firm and when I look at you know when my own conversion that's why I'm looking for. What I'm converted and focus __40:28__ show you that. Because you have a really great conversion of people calling in and coming into the workshop but then it really low conversion at is coming into the vision meetings that really high close rate. You know okay may be I don't need more people on my workshop I just need to get more people to convert from the workshop to the vision meeting and you have to break it down and look at it because it may be that you are getting unqualified people on your workshop and they should it come into a vision but that's also __40:55__ the way my marketing that I'm getting this on qualified people and that's not where I need to spend my time and money because __41:05__ feet it's not a right the type of person that I can do work with me. (Crosstalk) diagnostic before we just throw money at it.

41:13 S?

I see what you're saying, so if I know that you know close rate to tie conversion rate from workshop division tie. I am not ready to you know I've got enough staff, I've got enough people to do the follow up all of those things and now I'm ready to throw money at this is really just to make it fly. That's when I start looking at put money in the marketing.

41:34 S?


41:38 S?

You're following and it's not been that it can't happen simultaneously otherwise it sounds like it's a take long process and people aren't do anything marketing because of that __41:47__ and the marketing takes a long __41:50__ sooner than later, but some people pulled that out as such as separate conversation when it really is just walking through every aspect of your law firm.

42:00 S?


42:02 S?

In all has to be look at and then we're credibly I just seek so many people throw money and in add or throw money at the mailer without any -- that's my first question okay your doing this great. Who's doing the follow up and it that on the calendar?

42:13 S?

Right and this is where were struggling is to where to do we throw the dollars. You know and admittedly, we have been horrible out in the past. But this is something that we are trying to focus on now and really you know have a purpose behind our marketing.

42:37 S?

It's going to be key for that. Go ahead Lenny.

42:41 Lenny

Well, we track everything ask me anything I can tell you everything... (Crosstalk) I know everything else is in place. I mean I feel confident that at this point what we need is more body. So where do I focus?

42:54 S?

Need more __42:55__. What does that mean? More leads?

42:58 S?

More potential, more leads, more potential clients yeah.

43:02 S?

Okay I love it blah...blah...blahh of your question about you know where to be spend our dollars and I think it's phenomenon conversation in regards to setting up this budget and when we essentially have proposed marketing budget looking at that, so if you know you have $2000 a month to be spending on marketing and you know that a good use of your money is saying newspaper advertisement for advertising pre-workshop and you'll know to do that for on a monthly basis that comes out every other week or comes out twice week whenever it's gonna be. The average is anywhere between $800 to $2000 a month so knowing that you might say okay __43:46__ one item. So, you have to say to yourself it is producing free sales that we want? And the answer might be no and so you say okay why can't we reasonably looking through our entire PNL entire budget as a whole. Where can we may be of that other let say thousand dollars and may be its you know or may be it's $600 a month for the elder care channel or it's $600 a month for integrity marketing which include the five blogs, a news letter at DO all that. These are where you -- I know you and I __44:28__ so, so, so incredibly crucial, critical and it suicidal not to have a weekly marketing meetings, so you have that opportunities is how much a cup of coffee, a cup of tea or a glass of water and have this conversation because these aren't how many conservation you can have. You know a conversation you can have during your team meeting and is really is going to take you two, three or four weeks to really flash out and look at this and say okay you know Linda, Jude whoever is going to be, here's a three, four, and five different option that we have been toying with because many of you have all of you probably have ideas and you probably flung out potential opportunities for where we can do this and the other things.

45:17 S?

So each person it's gonna have to leave one designated marketing leader is gonna have to go and do their homework until next week's meeting __45:25__ Susan to look at. I did call other care channel. I called integrity marketing. I called the SCO guys you tell me about. I called you know the build boards on the freeway whatever it is. Here is what each of them costs, here's the demographics, this is how many people there going to reach out too. Here's our intended return on investment so there is a tremendous amount of legwork and conversation that you guys have to be having on a weekly basis. It's not just a decision and say go to bed. And the client so important and critical. In ideal world, look at this budget, take out what you don't like, add some line items that work for you direct mail might not be an option for you. Direct mail may be a phenomenal option for you, but...

46:16 S?

So you we're gonna send me something that will give a jumping off the place.

46:20 S?

It will yeah. Yes it's gonna be you know very general because it might be something in your area that you've hear about like one of the thing you've heard Dave and Judith talked about before with the shopping cart. You know they got talk in to putting to add some at the back of the shopping carts you know when you...

46:41 S?

Did it work?

46:43 S?

No and I'll tell you...

46:45 S?

Okay we have those too here.

46:47 S?


46:48 S?

We didn't buy them, but we got to purchase on that.

46:50 S?

No, because if you don't have a baby that you're not putting their button or feet on top of that, you are putting your purse there.

46:56 S?

Yeah. You're right.

46:56 S?

That's how I shop and...

47:01 S?

And you're right. We are you know we did have our first marketing meeting morning by the way, but our problem is kind of the option...

47:07 S?

Hey, congratulations. I know.

47:09 S?

Thank you. Our problem is this, we have it the budget. We're not spending it because we don't know where to spend it...

47:20 S?


47:20 S?

So you guys have really given me some great direction as far as -- okay, it is leg work. You got to find out what's out there, what's available and then fit and rest for six to nine months and track it, and if it's working, great, keep doing it. If it's not working, pull it back and do something else.

47:39 Roslyn Drotar

And the six months again is so important because even if you look back and I was the worst for doing this Susan, a little bit higher people when I was in the law firm and let say what about advertising here, what about this sound like? We did that befor, but it didn't work and then I had realized you know we did it but, we changed __47:57__ of what the expert told what to do because we thought they are smarter than them and then we slashed the budget at the last minute and only to know half of them and then we never did a follow up call, but we are suppose to. So, yeah it did not work but it didn't work because something we needed.

48:11 S?

And that's the other thing that we we're getting here with is a request for outsourcing this whole thing and...

48:24 S?

Be very careful.

48:24 S?

I don't mean to hire a marketing firm.

48:27 S?

Well, sort of yes, sort of yeah, more or less that's what it is.

48:34 S?

And here's why I'll say be careful. It's just like the five key focuses outsourcing technology. If you don't fundamentally understandard it, marketing is the first thing that I see law firms is -- oh my gosh, we can just hire this guys for a $1000 a month, $800 a month whatever it is and he can take care of XYZ. It will take all the pain off of us and the reason I say be careful is that number one, you don't want that you guys -- you have to understand it and you have to breath it and you have try so many different things.

49:11 S?

Okay, because that's really my guy was I don't like it -- I don't feel comfortable with it, I wasn't really weaning that way at all beyond I let them right me a quote and they're still waiting for me to get back to them. So, I appreciate your take on that because I feel the same way about it. I just don't feel comfortable about it. They wanted to go so far as to be actually handing our registration to a workshops. I swear that's not me making all that noise.

49:51 S?

Yeah I just wanna try and figure out who it is -- I don't know somebody is shuffling around cell phone you line.

50:00 S?

Anyway, so I appreciate that extra input because I feel like I am just floating out there and I really do not know what I am doing. So this call at least gave me some direction as far as you know what to look at before we make the decision of what to do.

50:19 S?

Great. And that is really the first stop. And you know going from there and just bringing out what you know maybe if I am looking at what has worked in the past and we know it have worked in the past when you are looking through all of these stuff. You know we gave you on that sample document and starting there with the things you are comfortable with. And then taking a leap of faith on few other things. And you know like you said the first - you know that is really just getting it all done on paper, looking at it and figuring out what you want to do with it.

50:53 S?

Let me just say something really quick to highlight two things. One is Roslyn's leap of faith and then number two Susan's of just floating out there. And I love these two conversations because floating out there is never going to go away. The root of anxiety is lack of information. So, even if you outsource it to somebody, even if you bring in -- a lot of times people will bring in marketing earn turns or they meet someone really great __51:23__ or they hear about this great girl that do marketing for "part-time basis". Not really was sure what she is or is not doing, what the return on investments and a floating out there is because it is a esoteric scary conversation called marketing. And once you commit, even after 30 days to weekly team meetings working on this marketing budget first and foremost. Then number two, maybe 30 days later, you are moving on to your marketing plan and you are doing one small step at a time and you are getting your arms around it. If and when in 6 months, 9 months, 12 months down the road, you guys decide "Let us start looking at some of these other avenues and seeing how they can support us". But first you have to generate the revenue to pay their monthly bill plus the bills that are going to come with them for producing the collateral and what have you that comes to it that. So, I promise you, you will -- there will be no more floating out there, it will no longer be this fuzzy, scary conversation of we do not know what to do, where to do or when to start with marketing. Your weekly marketing meetings are going to be an enormous safety net for you and just an enormous schooling for you. And as a group, it has a collective team and the leap of faith comment that Roslyn made, "Be careful with that a little bit that anything that you do try".

53:01 S?

Once you decide okay we flick at the pricing structure, we attended the marketing round tables, we views the lists served. It is not necessarily a leap of faith because __53:13__ and say "Okay guys, this is what we are thinking of trying". And you are going to get 10,000 different opinions. Some of them from someone like David Carrier who is retail, retail, retail to somebody who is maybe smaller and does everything very much grassroot. You are going to take them all in, __53:31__ use what works for you and then you - I would like to say that you are taking a leap of faith that has a tremendous amount of research and homework back into it. And then when you are tracking in your measurement, then in 6 months, 9 months with have you -- you can say you know this is going, this is staying, this is for ramping up. But at least they will be very, very educated guesses. Does that make sense?

54:03 S?

It does, thank you.

54:07 S?

You are not alone. Just please know that. And you know -- when you...

54:12 S?

I know that.

54:16 S?

Trust me. But you just have to get started. So, you took step one today by having your first...

54:20 S?


54:21 S?

weekly marketing meeting. You are going to start working with this marketing budget. And you guys might be staring at it, scratching your head for a few weeks in and out. But you'll just say, "Okay, your homework is just to figure out how much money you are willing to invest on a monthly basis. And then from there you all can come up with a plan that works for you and being able to incorporate retail which is traditionally writing a check for. The only sweat equity in there for the most part is doing the research, while we are writing the checks for, getting all the collateral together, submitting it to someone and then maybe weekly baby sitting just checking in that our ad run, that our direct mail go out. Things of that nature. And then the wholesale approach which is all your relationship in marketing, synergy meetings, nursing home, community outreach, and then your community base which is participating in all of the different events. The all timers walks things to that nature that are going on in your community throughout the year.

55:28 S?

Okay. Thanks for so much great direction ladies.

55:33 S?

Yeah, you bet. Thank you.

55:37 S?

So Ros, we are distributing to everyone making available to them a sample marketing budget to work on.

55:44 S?

Yes, we are. Yep, we will get that up on the member's website along with the recording of the audio.

55:51 S?


55:52 S?

Oh! Okay. Can you give me an email when that goes on the website, please?

55:55 Roslyn Drotar

Yes, yes.

55:56 S?


55:57 S?

Thank you.

55:58 S?

Oh! You are welcome.

55:59 Roslyn Drotar

Absolutely. Does anybody else have any other questions or insight comments before we wrap up? We have about three minutes left.

56:12 Sam Butcher

Can you hear me?

56:13 S?


56:14 S?


56:15 Sam Butcher

Awesome. It is Sam Butcher.

56:16 S?

Hi Sam, welcome.

56:18 S?


56:20 Sam Butcher

I was in a client meeting so I did not get to the first half of the call. But as I entered, I heard something about a -- Molly having a blog on the cash flow focus or something like that?

56:34 S?


56:35 Sam Butcher

How do I get that?

56:39 Roslyn Drotar

It is on the Lawyers with Purpose website. If you go to the blog section.

56:43 Sam Butcher


56:44 Roslyn Drotar

You can find it there but you know what Sam, I am sure I can get my hands on it and email it to you as well.

56:49 Sam Butcher

Okay. We are just you know we are just doing a weekly.

56:55 S?

Yeah. Just so you know, all the blogs stay there. If you go to the main site under that navigation for the blog, anything we ever blog about it stays there. You can go through...

57:05 Sam Butcher


57:06 S?

You can go back and you can read it.

57:09 Sam Butcher


57:10 S?

So every time we mention it will always remain there. But I will go ahead and get my hands on it and I will email it directly to you.

57:14 Sam Butcher

I think I can find it there. I read some of them, but I wish I could say I read every blog, but sometimes you know in the work-a-day world, I do not get too much -- I will be much smarter if I could read everything that comes in my way from this group. But sometimes work gets in the way.

57:36 Roslyn Drotar

Yes. Yes. Okay, great. Anything else? Well thank you all so much for joining us and for joining in. And, I hope it was able to give you insight and really, truly like I said at the beginning of a call, our biggest goal was to have you all just really start putting pen to paper, writing down and coming up with your own marketing budget. So feel free to email if you have any questions. My email address is rdrotar@lawyerswithpurpose.com.

58:23 S?

Great, thank you.

58:24 S?

Good job.

58:25 S?


58:26 Sam Butcher

Thank you.

58:27 S?

Thank you so much.

58:28 Roslyn Drotar

Have a good day everybody.

58:29 S?

You too thank you bye.