Call in to speak with the host
The Green Living Guy will be interviewing John Burke and special guests from MSI Lighting. They will be talking about their products but also their results!!
Leveraging their LED expertise, and in collaboration with the leading optic developers and LED manufacturers globally, MSi has extended this same LED technology to retail accent spot and flood lighting. It's our niche, and we're now taking orders for the next generation of retail lighting ... the amazing iPAR-38, iPAR-30 and iMR-16 intelligent LED replacement bulbs and the Trio Trac LED track light fixture.
Hello. Hello. Green Living Guy here, what's going on? I know it's been a while. It's been too long. How is everybody doing out there in the Green Living Guy world, you know. Crazy things are happening, but good things are happening. I have been working actually with a school to help them to go all green lighting LED and we're estimating some serious $100,000 of savings a year, talking about crazy cash coming back to a school. That's one school, multiply that out times how many schools in this country... Wow! Right, you know serious order of magnitude. We can do some serious savings. Speaking of which I am going to bring on my guy here who is the man, the myth, the legend from one of my best people who is bringing green lighting to this country and abroad, MSI Lighting. They are doing some great stuff with their products. I have their products in my house, so I have seen them in action. I am not just talking smack and saying, "Oh yeah, they're great", but nothing there. They really work. They are bright. And they do the job. Not the bad way, but in a great way. And if you're in most of the Macy's or Abercrombie and Fitch, or some other great stores you're going to be able to see these guys, just by walking around. You will see there lights and those companies are saving a lot of cash, a lot. And that's the greatest part about it, is you are not compromising, you're actually saving.
You know our lighting has been inefficient from way too long in this country and we've now recently allowed for better lighting standards which only helped us to get out of this financial mess. It really does. And I am bringing on the phone, is John there?
I am here.
John is there, Mr. John Burke from MSI Lighting.
Good morning, Seth.
He is bringing the heat.
He's bringing in the heat, alright. I had no idea I was a legend.
You are the myth, you are the legend. There have only been stories about you, John. I can confirm.
Oh my goodness.
How are you doing?
We're doing great. [Crosstalk] We are pretty down busy here which is just fine by me.
I bet it is in this economy. Who's talking about, "Oh yeah, we're cranking it out." You know, who is doing that?
I don't know.
I know. More people should be listening. Hey, tune in and tell your friends, because believe it or not we are trying to bring jobs to America. We are trying to save people cash so that they can then turn around and do great things with that money they save.
You know. You know.
And we of course hire people all the time so that's kind of fun to be able to actually say that we're doing that.
Look at that. In this country you are hiring people, Oh my God! So think about it people. We are not just talking about green living here, okay? We're talking about stuff that's business oriented, energy oriented and a part of this national discussion that we get everyday which is about how we're going to get back to work. How are we going to get people back to work? And I always jokingly say and this is a perfect example of it, you know, its just as simple as screwing a light bulb. Right, John?
Exactly. I don't want to sound that simple, Seth. But...
But you know. Well, tell me some nuances about the green lighting business that you've experienced in your years of doing and working with MSI?
Well, we've been doing LED lighting for more than a decade, but we primarily we're doing LED lighting in the mining industry. That's what MSI actually stands for, it means Mine Safety Innovations.
Like a pill.
So when we started this company, we actually today probably produced about 80% of all the miner's cap lamps in the world. And we were one of the pioneers who took that hot halogen light bulb that sits on a miner's forehead literally when on that helmet that they wear. And they are 2-1/2 miles down the ground, there is no airflow and it is 300 and plus degrees. And we took that and went from a halogen spotlight with about a 4-pound battery on his hip down to about a
1-1/2 pound in an LED light.
And in doing that we were able to learn how to point the optic in an LED, how to really make that work. So I would like to thank that we had a little bit of a head start on several of our competitors are developing LED optics. So today we find ourselves with a whole line of products that we call retail accent spot and flood lights and these are for retailers and for restaurants and hospitality, and lobby's and museums and even in people's homes. Where ever you have what we call like PAR lamp a screw in spotlight in a ceiling or in a retail store shining on products, you can literally replace that halogen light bulb with an LED. And what does that mean? I mean it means to go from a 90-watt light bulb to a 10-watt light bulb. It means you go from a light bulb that lasts about $3000 to one that lasts $50,000 when you divide that into...
When you divide it.
divide that into 12 hours a day. Many things last for certainly 12, 13, 14 years and then it's a simple mathematical calculation in terms of energy savings. And you know state by state you will hear power utility saying the word strafing the grid and we have got a lot of people just sucking out all the energy. Well, these things save about 75% of the energy that you used to have on that power bill and in my opinion, it is a better light. It stays the same color for years. We're able to direct the light better and you know, it's just a really neat innovation in the world of lighting. I am sure Tom Edison would be proud as could be that something has kind of taken over from the filament and that is a little PCB Board with the LEDs on it. It's pretty neat. I am sure - I am absolutely sure in the years to come every light bulb will be an LED.
And the more we work with them, the more we understand how you can make them change color. How you can make them focus differently and it's just a fascinating new thing and its kind of fun, because we are doing our part to reduce energy consumption in a huge way. Yeah, I don't know if you know, but I mean the reality is let's just talk about the commercial side and the retail side of this. There are about 4 billion light sockets in all over America in about 2 billion of American commercial. So I mean these are huge numbers. And I would say that probably at this point in time it is less than 10% of them are LED. I mean the change has just gotten started.
Are we on the TNBC or are we on The Green Living Guy Show?
This is great! Keep going. I love it. This is what it's all about, keep going. Keep going.
Well, I mean the fact is that you have heard the stories that the halogen light bulbs have got to -- they are going to be banned and you know the 100 watts and all of the different reasons to make the move towards LED. But the reality is as we find an LED light bulb actually outperforms the halogen bulb. The quality of life, the color of life, the consistency in the color for one bulb to the next, I mean its one thing to say let's really save some money, but some others say lets improve the technology at the same time. So we're pretty proud of all that.
I would assume so given that you are step ahead of the competitors given that you started in an industry that really needed better lighting for all the right reasons such as heat, such as the battery storage issues.
With these miner's. I mean...
You know who wants that kind of heat on your forehead. It's well...
But the other thing too here is they have actually changed the way the miner's you know, if you have to go 2 miles in the ground into the mine shaft, they now have them working 12 hour shifts and they don't work as many days, but the old battery pack wouldn't even last a shift. So they just to have to change their battery pack, so all those kind of things, they're just wonderful.
And it helps them to keep things safer too because where would you get those batteries? You would have to walk back out of the mine shaft to change the battery, right?
That's right. Well, you know there's one cool thing that we've also learned and it's a consequence of going to solid-state lighting.
LED light bulbs have basically a little brain inside there. I like to tell people, it's a computer that happens to light up, and in doing so...
What I have been telling people. Yeah.
You have the capabilities with this chip inside this light bulb to track every miner in the shaft, and not only do you know where all of the miners are, so do the unmanned little trains that go up and down the shafts loaded up with whatever there is that you're mining.
In the past, most people that got hurt and killed in a mine shaft were hit by their train, and now the train knows if somebody is standing on the track because of the chip that's inside the light that's on their head.
Oh, that's fantastic.
Is that cool?
So, they've created technology that the unmanned cart ties into the LED, into the diode.
Oh, that's they do, I mean you could do a bit more like more of a (crosstalk)
And the computer chip, that's fantastic.
With our light bulbs right know, I can take a light bulb out of a retail store and I can tell you exactly what the wattages, exactly what the color temperature is and exactly how long that light bulbs have been burning since it was born. And we could never do that with light bulbs in the past.
Right. Right. And that's a big accomplishment. I mean just to give us the order of magnitude, in a typical business, let's say a big business that hires lots of people or did hire lots of people in the past, was losing money in the head of you know, let people go. Isn't it just sometimes simple like changing the lighting to reduce the overall cost to have the net energy savings?
Absolutely. There is one copy on to the whole going green situation whether it is changing at your light bulbs in the ceiling of your business or going to solar panels or any kind of transition, there is a onetime upfront expense to purchase these light bulbs.
And there are a lot of people that are concerned about casual. But I give you a typical example ...
I love when the people are concerned of our casual. Go ahead.
Yeah. If a guy owns a furniture store and he has got a thousand light bulbs in his furniture store and he's got them burning all day long. That guy's monthly power bill might be about $5,000, and if he takes those thousand light bulbs out and puts in a thousand LED light bulbs, his power bill will go from $5,000 down to about $1,000.
And it's just amazing. So, he needs to buy these light bulbs onetime and there is a cut expense to do that, but then once he owns them his hour life is about one year. So, after one year those light bulbs would pay for themselves and those light bulbs will continue to shine for another 12 or 13 years and it's just [Crosstalk].
Automatic start too, meaning no heat up (laughing)
No hit at all. No hit at all. And if you're living Florida, what we do...
Put off the light. You have [Crosstalk]
You know, how you going to light a stadium, you're going to turn the lights on like 15 an hour before the game, you know.
Just to warm up, you know.
Get one added anymore, you know.
And if you go into a furniture store that has a thousand halogen light bulbs, guess what and not all the same age and some of them are different colors than the others. So, they start to turn yellow with aging, so you can always tell the ones that are older. These or they're identical. Or they're be an exactly color.
Yeah I know. And then they just loose 80% of the white out put after that period of time. They don't kind of even go out, like they just from my understanding after the 13 plus years...
Yeah, they don't pop and go off like halogen bulbs they will diminish in the future.
Yes. So, I mean it's not like you have a risk of failure, you're getting a computer saying, slowly telling you it's time to change the vault.
It's right. And in the major department store right now, there maybe 5,000 of these spot lights and typically 10% of them are burned out, if they're halogens. So, that means in a typical department store as many as 500 light bulbs are not burning and it looks tacky and it doesn't light up the dress of the mannequin and all like that stuff.
Yeah. Yes. When I go into stores, like I wrote my recent composed story you just get this new perspective on life when you looked at a green lighting, a green energy efficient lightings. It's like you look at those yellow bulbs and you go mad and you're just paying way too much for energy. And your light looks like, shocked! Kind of get. Wow! Fired out.
It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing.
And speaking of people that are understanding and getting onto this thing, I believe we have a special guest on do we?
We do. And it's very special so thank you.
We do! Very special and she has been on the phone the whole time, just listening in and being supportive.
That's right. That's mean special and supportive, you sounded out.
(Laughing). We have the special Allison Zimmer on the line, ladies and gentleman who is the social media diva here from MSI and rocking it out. Thank you very much. Let's give her a clap there you go.
Good morning Allison. Allison and I are not in the same facility, so I don't get to see her.
There is Skype or something. What's your take on all of this? I know you're all new to the -- relatively new to the whole LED game and understanding of this staff, but this isn't crazy of the kind of things that were talking about like how it correlates to the national discussion.
Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, it's changing everything and it's something that everybody can do. It gives everybody a place to start, everybody who is thinking about all of the ways to cut back their energy cost. We have changed the way that they all live which is something attainable. Changing your light bulb is something everyone relates to and it's a place for everyone to begin.
That's vey exciting.
Exactly. It is exciting on that level and once you realize it it's like, Oh my gosh! Look what we can do.
And that's what were doing on a Facebook page and that's what we have been doing on Twitter in which you've been helping us what to deal with get people interested in talking about lighting and getting people excited about the small changes that they can make that will really begin to add up with them.
So, the Twitter handle is @msiligthing, right?
And the Facebook is...
MSI solid-state lighting.
Facebook.com/msisolid-statelighting. Oh men. Well, I have some good news to mention to the both of you know that I have both of you on the phone. I was -- before I even got on to this conversation, on the phone with a gentleman name Jack Hidary, who has a company called Samba Energy, who is doing massive energy efficiency in Massachusetts all over the place. One of his bigger clients is Hertz and he has other big clients too and John he wants to talk to you. (Laughing)
How about that? A lead coming from my blogger. I'm pretty impressed.
This is great!
Oh my goodness, live on me baby! We're doing it live. Anyway, yeah. You know, this is the great thing about building business. The opportunities are available for people despite doing lighting and I mentioned your company because of the great quality of light that you provide people, I mean not just that but the comfort and I'm not just saying this people because of my love in the support of MSI here, ladies and gentleman, but if you are going into Macy's like this one in Connecticut that I got, the Danbury Mall. I got this Macy's there and you walk in and it's a lot cooler than it used to be. Every time I walk around there, meaning it's a reasonable temperature when you had a jacket on, you know in sweater or shirt something like that and you're trying to step on, it's comfortable. You want to stay there longer, because -- and the lights are good.
I mean that the lights are better, I think. And people don't even realize that LED lightings are in places. I was in the, what was at JFK recently and there is this, you're going down this escalator, they are exhibit or whatever right in front of you where you should be going down and I looked into the light and I said, Ah-ha, and I look and turned around and of course it was diodes.
So, it's happening everywhere and people just start realizing it and its saving people money. I think it's the silence -- it's almost like the energy efficiency whisperer, in some ways of the green lighting whisperer. It's just quietly who is doing the job.
That's right. We actually put up an article that was published recently where they get independent research talking about the effects of lighting and what consumers prefer and without knowing which all they came from. They actually prefer the light that came from LED light. Now you know it's not only a greener choice and a cleaner choice and a choice that cost a lot less in terms of energy, but they will just like it, it looks good. Makes your product look good.
Oh yeah and believe me ladies and gentleman the cool thing about it -- if you're not a multinational company or a big company or whatever, you're just the individual at home saying okay this I will use kind of cost some money. Let me tell you something, buy one put it in then buy another one the next one, put it in because by the first one you put in, you're gonna realized that light is so much better that you're gonna want another and then the best part is when the bill comes, that's the best part meaning your energy bill you go what, wait a minute because you don't just save on how much you're using, but you saved on total -- the wattage. You saved also on total demand. You're saving on what -- because you pay twice almost on this utility right John?
It was apply and delivery. You're paying food and fuel and then you're paying for the utility to pipe of fuel to you.
So, when you do that you're paying twice almost for the same service and so it reduces it that's why you get these efficiencies of 70% to 80% for companies, for people that have lighting and they're changing their lighting now. I mean aren't you seeing that when people call you up John?
No question about it. The people are coming to us because they absolutely understand the mathematics to this. Now, the biggest challenge we have is getting people to get to that spot. I would say most retailers blindly pay their monthly utility bill without even any consideration of what is it that they can do to make their power bill go down and they pay month after month and not only do the LED light consume 75% to 80% less energy than the existing halogen bulb, but right now today all across the country there are rebates that are available from local power utilities and in many cases the rebate, which is given a right after the initial purchase of the product within 30 days is as much as 50% of the total purchase price of the entire store then after that, there is a federal tax credit that you can get called an EPAct tax credit that from going green, so there has never been an easier road to upgrading like I said the only challenge that a retailer has in this economic environment is finding the capital to make that onetime upfront capital expenditure to go out and buy $50, 000 worth of lights that they're not cheap lights. They cost $40 to $60 a piece depending on the quality of the product, but the payback is within one year and they last for 13 years.
Also, don't you start seeing your savings the next month?
You see savings within 10 minutes.
That's what I'm saying.
The consumption on the meter goes down literally.
That's what I am talking about. I mean it's spontaneous and then at that month, you start reaping the savings.
That's right. I will tell you one story. We had a retailer who we went switched out a thousand fixtures in one store as a test to kind of learn and without our knowledge the corporate office was tracking the consumption store by store and they called the store manager about two days later and said what are you doing? Are you closing early? Are you turning lights off? What's going on there? And basically they said no. This people came in and then took out our halogen light bulbs and then installed LED spotlights and they looked beautiful and within two days, the parent company had noticed that the energy consumption had dropped dramatically, that's the best selling tool I have ever had.
It's gonna be.
It's gonna be where corporate says hey how are you saving this money? What are you doing?
Something is going on, yeah.
Yeah, but -- and then initially of course they get suspicious, they go what are they doing? Are they living early? Are they free loading and trying to collect. No, we just saved your money boss.
It has been amazing. That's right, that's right.
It's so simple. It's scary and I've seen in certain places and you usually see this believe it or not and I have seen this sometimes in school districts where they save -- they got a budget and then at the end of the year, when they are trying to negotiate the next budget all the sum they've got all this excess capital right? Why don't you one year take that money, switch out the lights in your schools and then start reaping hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in savings that's what I am doing with this one school right now. They are gonna possibly -- they have calculated on lighting alone about closed to $200,7000 a year in savings.
If you think about all the expenses that any business or any school has to go through and there are challenged to constantly to cut expenses, here is one staring, I am right to face.
You know what's also funny. I'm gonna throw this out too. We have this on New York now where this is a property tax cap, you can't spend over a certain amount a year even if you wanted now without both approval and most of the time, that's not gonna happen so this building managers that are just scratching their head with the superintendents and the board, but the boards are bad. Everybody is trying to figure to cut a teacher here and cut a teacher there, they should be doing this going LED.
Now, on a business standpoint, here are some questions that I've got in the past that I throw at you as you MSI the company do you have -- you only do PAR lamps.
Well, we only do --we only believed that our patents and our proprietary technology and our trade secrets if you will, the things that make our product unique are only found in the applications what we called retail accent spot flood lighting. We don't do every kind of light. We don't do parking lot lights. We don't do what they called High Bay warehouse lights. Our focus is in PAR lamps which is PAR38, PAR30, PAR20, MR16, GU10 and DR30 those kind of light bulbs that you see at retail and the idea behind our light is that it has a superior ability to gather light from the left and right and point it at an object whether it's a red dress on a mannequin in a retail store or at a piece of art in a museum or at a couch in a furniture store. There is less lost light we call it delivered lumens. We have a better ability to capture that light and punch it out the middle of the light onto an object and so that application is best shown through retail spotlights. You will see retails stores have track lights and fixtures on them shining on products. That's why we believe our product is better and so if we were to just say, oh we will produce any kind of LED you want, we don't believe in that and we have a corporate challenge to continue to improve the products we have, but our sweet spot is accent spot and flood lighting.
You get a lot of houses that way too.
You can, sure.
I know a lot of houses that all they have got are flood lamps, that's all they got and some of these houses they got high ceilings.
Oh yeah. Imagine if you have your lights on a lot having to climb the ladder and change that fixture out twice a year, once a year whatever.
I have friends that bugging me to bring that thing handy bars you can screw into the bulb and then and then with the pole you know...
You can do like, I don't want go up there. Do you have it? Please help me please! -- You know. Yeah! I'll help you with an MSI LED.
They agree, right.
That is exactly right.
So, where are you seeing where the technology is going. Where do you see its heading? Isn't gonna get more efficient overtime?
Or buy the same quality alike?
Yeah it should and you know and I am a little frustrated every now and then when I hear someone say "well I'm just gonna waiting 'till the prices come down'". The reality is the savings that you would get today, make it smart decision to it today. But the technology will continue to improve. I think what will learning is how to make a better performing LED chips. I think the chip makers have a better understanding of that. I think we as a company have continued to improve our products in terms of the other entire component free inside. If an LED chip last for 50,000 hours and the rest of your lamp only is built to last for 10,000 hours and what are you're trying to accomplish for your customer. We like to think that every area that whether it's the heat in the thermals or it's the optic in the lens or the PCV boarder or the driver are literally all the different components should all be constructed to last because that's the whole reason why you're doing this. So, that there is efficiency that lighting has never provided before. I mean an average light bulb and an average retail business last for 90 days. This is a game changer you know.
Every time I realized it, I look at the light you know it's like what, yes I said enough. You get a certain prospective once you know about this lighting. You look at other business and then just go "Can I speak to the manager please."
But feel bad for them after awhile.
I do, I feel, I'm like a man and you're job is gonna be coming next because when they get the next power bill and they're not pulling enough, enough sales. I mean I just, you feel terrible because that's what has come down to in this country with our economy. I think people don't realize that we spend so much an energy with just don't even realizing.
Well not all do we spend so much on it. We don't even challenge it. We just blindly pay the power bill every month.
Thinking there's nothing we can do.
And I'm not trying to be protesting that here. I'm talking you know, how I protest with my wallet.
You know if I don't want something fine, later you know, but if I want something I'm gonna keep going back and buy it because it makes all the sense in the world. And now to have LEDs in my house and to see the difference in power bill. I'm not -- you know I guess it's like that expression when should go LED you never go back.
I understand that man. That's the plan for us. That's for sure.
You know, I bet! I bet! I bet! So anybody out there let me ask you, I know you focused a lot on the retail side, but say there's a listener out there that says "Hey I wanna switch out. I wanna get this and the side bulbs. They can go on to your website and buy?
Not really, you know we have a distributor network across the country. If you go on our website and you click on the distributor tab. It will give you several of our national distributors and you can buy from them. They're also online at the thousandbulbs.com.
But, yeah and our product is you know. We value our relationship with our distributors and there are lighting distributors that had been in this business for many, many years and so any in all of them would gladly work with that someone who calls in and that's for sure.
Okay, so you go to distributor or you can go to thousandbulbs.com.
You don't make it any simpler there thousandbulbs.com I mean how many millions people go there to buy their lights.
Yeah a lot of and they're a wonderful people. They leave and ship it over night from everything I see so you know we are a huge job kit in creating a quality product that will last. We have a five-year warranty on our product. We've got all performance criteria. Our product is Energy Star certified and you know we try to do our products...
You know and ladies and gentlemen. Ladies and gentlemen let me just tell you. Yes, in the United States as a bulb manufacturer and I hate use the term because people don't know what I am talking about, but you really are sitting on a green job.
Well great. I think so.
You -- this is -- ladies and gentlemen here's the guy with the green job. John Burke.
The other cool thing is that we don't have any toxic materials in an LED spotlight. There is no mercury in there. All of our parts there are completely recyclable, so all good stuff.
Right. One funny thing and I just wanted to pave this issue that people sometimes have with LEDs it that, sometimes they say because and I wanna make this clear that there are more minerals in that like copper and stuff like that, then in a fluorescent lamp, but then they try to make the assumption that if that bulb drops, then its gonna explode and create toxic heck. Let me ask anybody out there have questions. If your computer drops what happens?
I don't know. You gonna go buy a new one.
You create mercury spills? Now a person drops a computer you pick it back up in either it's dented or it doesn't work, but most of time it keeps looking and take kids on take it.
You know, so...
I think you told me once and I just love saying this to people that this one information company that we know that you provide the lighting to -- the only time they return bulbs was when they accidentally drop the bulb and then had a ding.
These light bulbs don't fail. If an LED light bulb is going to have a problems. It's typically that the brain inside of it if you will, the circuit board has difficulty just talking to the LEDs and so what we do is we actually burn in these light bulbs we call. We turn them on and we run them for 36 hours in our factory before we put them in a box. So, we pretty much mitigate that problem by making sure that every light bulb is functioning before it goes into its own box. So we've never had product come back for failing. So we're pretty happy too.
No but you've might have it for like what I was saying like when this certain retailer would drop the bulb when they install it and it might have had a dent or might have parted.
Yeah! That's gonna happen.
But we don't return it because the bulb did something bad.
By the way if you drop it and mashed it and it is still work which is fascinating.
That's the funny part--still work, but it just has this dent. So, you know (crosstalk) better you know.
That's all it is, but it's not like your creating and the person -- their safety to go issues go away because if they do drop that bulb, it's not mercury.
There are no toxic issues here. No toxic issues here people you know.
It is really simple. It is just a simple stuff here. You know screwing in a light bulb. I don't know how many times I say that to people and then they joke with me you know when I -- because name is Leitman, so they go -- you must be joking, you must hate when how many times it takes to screw in the light bulb you know and its quite...
It's damn! You know, I stood at one time dealing with this one school district. How many more people is it gonna take to screw in a light bulb like. Come on people.
Well once you go MSI you don't have to worry about that for awhile. Hey listen! I'm nine minutes late for another meeting. We're busy.
Oh my goodness! Well John Burke thank you very much because you're bringing green jobs, US jobs to this country, but you're helping companies save millions of dollars a year.
And that pretty excites us about that. And yes we are an American Company unlike...
Unlike so many -- we are actually an American Company, so we appreciate your support Seth. We appreciate you have found a show, any questions, anybody can ask (Crosstalk).
And we have an area in there where you want info. You can send an email. You can ask us any question. We'll have one of our people answer you and they'll help you get educated to LED lighting.
That's right. I gonna welcome my website too guys. You go to the website if you're on my website greenlivingguy.com you'll see one of the -- you'll see a bunch of the MSI bulbs just click on that; they'll take you straight to them.
John Burke, thank you very much.
Allison! Then, thank you for listening and then being a part of the whole radio show experience here, this is great.
And the Green Living Guy is saying every time one step at a time. Today is MSI Green Lighting. Well, see you later.
Sorry we couldn't complete your registration. Please try again.
Please enter your email to finish creating your account.
old-style code for hosted blogs
300 x 295
400 x 370
640 x 550
It's good to talk.