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Boston Patriot

7/2/2008 9:02 PM UTC

Hello DangerGirl; thanks for reading and responding. When I use the phrase "for the most part" it is my way of saying that I always reserve the right to change my views as circumstances dictate. It's very hard to 100% trust anyone, at least for me. Trust is a big deal and the media of today are not worthy of it. I have to pick and choose those I judge to be intellectually honest, whether or not I agree with them. Secondly, before we split hairs over "torture" and America's role in it, it needs to be specified to ME exactly what it is we are talking about. Specifically, someone needs to spell out what they mean when they say that America "tortures" people. To me, torture is dismemberment, maiming. If it's sleep deprivation, temperature differentials, waterboarding, Abhu Ghraib, I'm not interested in having the discussion because it's not torture in my opinion. Lastly, to address your "moral equivalence" retort: I am going to paste the paragraph here for our mutal review: my understanding is that he doesn't equate America's behavior "torture or no" with Al Quaeda. That is an important point with me and Yon earned my trust on it; I have no patience with those who suggest that America is the reincarnation of Third Reich (poetic license taken; I think you understand my context. America wears the white hat in this battle, Bottom Line." Anyway, here is Yon's moral equivalence paragraph: "There is no way to know how many American lives were lost in Iraq due to the tortures we inflicted upon Iraqis at Abu Ghraib and other places. This is no argument of moral equivalence. I have seen the atrocities committed by al Qaeda and other terrorists, and I am not saying that Americans have ever come close to those acts. New Yorkers saw the atrocities of al Qaeda, as did many others." Thanks for writing and tuning in; hope to speak with you soon and Happy Fourth.

DangerGirl

6/29/2008 2:27 PM UTC

With due respect: "I trust him for the most part" - is like saying "I'm kinda pregnant". You are or you aren't. You trust someone or you don't. Whenever I hear someone say" I trust Yon for the most part" what they usually mean is "I trust him only when he what he writes is what I believe is truth, and/or I want to hear." It is somewhat misleading to claim that Michael acknowledges torture does work without putting that one line into the proper context: What Michael wrote was: " But the fact is, torture does work. That does not mean we should do it. While torture might provide tactical gains, it delivers a strategic blunder. Let’s not argue whether it works or not. Let’s have the hard argument – whether or not it’s consistent with our values. We can obtain short term benefits from using torture, but in the long run we inflict far more pain on ourselves." That is a very powerful truth; one that many on the right consistently refuse to acknowledge or simply outrightly disregard with retorts such as "well they do it,or well it a different kind of war and the Geneva Convention shouldn't apply since the terrorists don't abide by it, etc " As Michael Yon stated clearly: " This is no argument of moral equivalence. When we tortured detainees, we lost something very important, something that America and its allies need in order to prevail against terrorists, not just in Iraq, but all over the world. We scarred our honor." The scars of torture never heal. Conversely, when detainees are treated with respect, they never forget it. Thankfully, the Republican nominee for President, Sen.John McCain, has stated categorically that torture is unacceptable and identified waterboarding as act of torture that violates the Geneva Convention, and act of torture for which we successfully prosecuted Japanese war criminals after World War II. You also write that the point Michael Yon makes is reasonable point for which reasonable people can disagree with him about. Again, I think you missed the point entirely that Michael made when he wrote: There is NO moral equivalence. What reasonable person would disagree that torture is unacceptable, and what reasonable person would disagree that torture is inconsistent with America's values?

DangerGirl

6/29/2008 2:23 PM UTC

With due respect: "I trust him for the most part" - is like saying "I'm kinda pregnant". You are or you aren't. You trust someone or you don't. Whenever I hear someone say" I trust Yon for the most part" what they usually mean is "I trust him only when he what he writes is what I believe is truth, and/or I want to hear." It is somewhat misleading to claim that Michael acknowledges torture does work without putting that one line into the proper context: What Michael wrote was: " But the fact is, torture does work. That does not mean we should do it. While torture might provide tactical gains, it delivers a strategic blunder. Let’s not argue whether it works or not. Let’s have the hard argument – whether or not it’s consistent with our values. We can obtain short term benefits from using torture, but in the long run we inflict far more pain on ourselves." That is a very powerful truth; one that many on the right consistently refuse to acknowledge or simply outrightly disregard with retorts such as "well they do it,or well it a different kind of war and the Geneva Convention shouldn't apply since the terrorists don't abide by it, etc " As Michael Yon stated clearly: " This is no argument of moral equivalence. When we tortured detainees, we lost something very important, something that America and its allies need in order to prevail against terrorists, not just in Iraq, but all over the world. We scarred our honor." The scars of torture never heal. Conversely, when detainees are treated with respect, they never forget it. Thankfully, the Republican nominee for President, Sen.John McCain, has stated categorically that torture is unacceptable and identified waterboarding as act of torture that violates the Geneva Convention, and act of torture for which we successfully prosecuted Japanese war criminals after World War II. You also write that the point Michael Yon makes is reasonable point for which reasonable people can disagree with him about. Again, I think you missed the point entirely that Michael made when he wrote: There is NO moral equivalence. What reasonable person would disagree that torture is unacceptable, and what reasonable person would disagree that torture is inconsistent with America's values?