Sonia Luna Interviews Mike Jacka. Mike Jacka is a speaker, trainer, author, and internal auditor who, upon retiring from a 30-year career in internal audit with Farmers Insurance, became Chief Creative Pilot for Flying Pig Auditing, Consulting, and Training Solutions (FPACTS). An award-winning columnist, he is known for his work with Internal Auditor magazine including the blog “From the Mind of Mike Jacka” and the magazine’s lighter side pieces such as “Alice in Auditland”, “Auditing Songs for the Holidays”, and "Auditors Anonymous". He speaks on a wide ranging variety of topics including such areas as social media, reputation risk, creativity, and leadership. He is co-author of Business Process Mapping: Improving Customer Satisfaction (now in its second edition), Auditing Social Media: A Governance and Risk Guide, and The Marketing Strategy: A Risk and Governance Guide to Building a Brand. His latest book will be published in 2014, a collection of humor pieces titled Auditing Humor and Other Oxymorons
Hi, I am Sonia Luna, CEO and founder of Aviva Spectrum and Internal Audit and Compliance Consulting Firm Headquartered in Sunny, Los Angeles, California. I am also a well-known speaker and topic COSO 2013, SOX 404 Quality Assessment Reviews, Internal Auditing and related topics. Today's interview is and I am very excited Mike Jacka. Mike is a speaker, trainer, author in internal auditor who upon retiring from a 30-year career, let me just put that out there again, that is a three with a zero, 30-year career in internal audit with Farmers Insurance. In order to become, so this is a new venture that he is created, Pilot for Flying Pig Auditing, Consulting and Training Solutions so SPACTS. Mike is an award-winning columnist, best known for his work with Internal Auditor Magazine including the blog From the Mind of Mike Jacka and the magazine's a lighter side pieces such as Alice in Audit Land, Auditing Songs for the Holidays and Auditor's Anonymous. He is the co-author of Business Process Mapping: Improving Customer Satisfaction now in its second edition. Also, Auditing Social Media, A Governance and Risk Guide and The Marketing Strategy: A Risk and Governance Guide to Building a Brand. His latest book will be published so check it out on amazon.com by the summer of 2014 which is a collection of humorous pieces entitled Auditing Humor and other Oxymorons. So welcome Mike!
Good morning, good afternoon wherever you are and thank you for having me.
Great! We are really excited of having you in our show today and I wanted to get into something that I know you are very passionate about. I have been reviewing some of your blogs and lately you've been doing a lot of work and talking about the need for creativity and innovation within internal audit. So, how can an internal auditor be creative and innovative when implementing the new 2013 COSO framework but more importantly what about - you know other internal auditors when COSO isn't the flavor of the year for an internal audit group, how can they be creative when it is not a one-time big project?
It is a great question because what is going on with COSO right now I think really speaks to the challenge that auditors have and with the new framework that came out, I see that being both the positive about creativity and the negative about the way internal auditors approach subjects and approach new ideas, let's talk about negative side of it first. One of the things I have found was I talk to internal auditors about COSO and ICF. Is this real sitting back wanting to hear the answers and in particular what I see is such a focus on serving precisely. I understand where that comes from, but it still speaks to a blinder's approach. The ICF framework is about so much more than financial reporting yet people are sitting, waiting for the answers and that is where the creativity and innovation comes in. Recognizing that yes, we have the specific need but there is so much more out there. Auditors need to be creative in looking towards something new to do, looking for new approaches. The thing that they mentioned, they sit back, they are kind of waiting for answers and this is not only the areas I have seen with auditor's apart somewhat frustrates me. I've done a lot of work from social media, people say how do I audit it? I have done work on marketing, how do I audit it? I see people are asking very specifically about how to perform audits? If you understand the risk, if you understand the area, you know how to do the audit. So back to COSO and see people say, what does the framework mean? How do I apply it? Well, these are people who understand survey, these are experts and the expectation if there was creativity, if there was innovation will be fit in to say, this is how I did it. Here is the new one, this is how I would apply it and move forward not sitting back for answers. Now, that is kind of the negative side. What I will say, is on the positive side, I have seen odd shops who are really approaching this the right way. That the opportunity two or three groups to do some of the training on the new framework and what they are doing if they are saying, we see something new, we want to use this in our audit work. We want to be the ones to talk to our executives and talk to them about what is new out there because again the COSO framework is so much bigger. The changes that I have heard this line a million times and I am sure there is a lot of people have heard this. The change is not revolutionary, it's evolutionary. It makes it easier to understand but now auditors are, sometimes gives auditors the chance to take a look, see what is new and different, see what is happening and then apply it, look for the broader and maybe almost an inflection point. We kinda knew ICF was out there, here is a new and here is a chance to learn more about it. So the creativity comes in and how we look at this and how broadly we apply it and you know if it is flavor of the month that is the other side of this. It should be more than a flavor of the month but if people just focus on what do I with serving __5:38__ that is all it will be. It will be it will bring us back to the good old days of tick and tie auditing. Creativity and innovation is about auditing, looking into the future and looking for something new.
Right! There is some key examples that volume three and four have. Three is on the effectiveness and four is more like I call the SOX bible for COSO.
And I recently did a class and then I chapter eight hours and one of the examples without giving them any answer was an ethics audit. Okay, so one of the examples in the book is an ethics audit and the question post to the group was like, okay so what is, give me the top three steps to do that. Right? And they all looked around and each other like, Oh! She is actually asking us to do an audit program. I said this is not really hard. I just want an outline like if you are coming to this audit committee, you are telling them you want an ethics audit, how are you gonna do it? I mean, what are the top three steps? And I do not know even one, all the steps required. I said, let us think about auditing, completeness and accuracy. Okay, what is the population? What are we looking for? Okay, great! So, how do we get that done? And that is where the conversation started versus ticking and saying I have done a couple of different examples like that where I am posing the question to them to say, Okay! We will just walk me through just the basics, just the shell of what we are trying to deal and you are right. It is just they would love for me as a lecturer, just to give them the answer sheet in a PowerPoint slide and add a little bit of humor so they just don't fall asleep in the entire eight hours.
Well, that is exactly right and that is in the training everybody loves to control activities when you look at the five components because we know it we are auditors. The minute you get into control environment some people it is like a monkey watching a magic trick. They are just placing number on it and if I know when the first came out, that is one part I looked at when how the heck I am suppose to do this. I will say, one of the things I love the underlying principles. That gives it a lot better. But those principles can drive and audit, can drive and audit control environment and the minute you started doing your audit workup, with the control environment part which tie into the ethics you were talking about the minute you are ready so much more value, you are looking at the broad risk, you are looking at the broad problems. You got, findings and issues and concerns and just a conversation with the executive suite with the C-suite., they may not have ever had before and then look at you in the new light.
Exactly, so what do you think is maybe overlooked by internal auditors when they implement the new COSO framework? Is it just that, that they are looking for answers, someone to give them the answers and then they are looking some of these gems, value add or I mean, what is your thought?
I think that is the big thing and again, we focus more on control activities. We understand that monitoring the activities, we understand there are some of these that you know way back in '92 when it came out and this is a 30-year, I like the way you emphasize that by the way with the 30-year career, I watched a lot of those changes go on and looking at it, information, communication and control environment again, just kind of looking at it I am not sure what they were and those were the ones I think they are tougher to get a handle on. So, we need to go and focus on them as auditors because that is where the value will be. I mean I put those of the top two risk assessments. We're starting to get a grasp of how it means and what it means but the other one monitoring the activities talked about that one real quick. The thing it recognizes it is not just monitoring controls and this is the other thing I feel a lot of auditors are missing. It is not of monitoring controls. It is monitoring the entire framework. So it is about monitoring the information. It is not monitoring the control environment. It is a broader picture that many people looked at. That is the other opportunity often missed in the past and at this again, the great part of that is coming out, it is a chance for everybody kind of reboot, make sure they understand the broad perspective not just financial reporting.
Exactly and one thing in terms of the codification for these 17 principles. I showed them principle 9, on the risk assessment component and that word could, okay, so significant changes that could impact the system of internal control. So right there, so what does that mean? And posting that questionnaire, starting to rethink, Oh wait a minute! Is it everything that I know had happen in the past or is it also future looking at I know it is in my playbook, right? But the likelihood is so low, okay! And then I said so what is the monitoring mechanism because when we get to principle 16 and 17 and when I showed them the quantity of the work in terms of point of focus, I think that is where the life officer is turning on us. He will look of all these principles, these 17 principles, look at how many points of focus these key characteristics are in just a monitoring piece, right?
And is it no wonder it is here because as you stated earlier, it is all of it. It is all of the component, what are you looking at?
Not just one. They see that's an isolated item. They go to 16 and like, well this is my SOX thing. And as long as I am doing SOX every single year, check the box I'm done. And getting them to look at the other items in my way of explaining it is in a very common social setting, I am sure you are very familiar with this Mike. I am going to a bar. As a principle as a bar stool seats and those points of focus are legs, just the legs of the bar stool.
So the question is, can you live with if there is four points of focus to that bar stool seats? If two of them are missing, would you really sit down on that seat? Would you say you have covered that principle? And it resonates with a lot of people because they are just like well, it's - you know the guidance says I do not have to have everything. Yeah, okay, that is true but let us be real about the core concept of what those points suppose to guide us to think about.
An analogy we literally used when I was working with Farmers Insurance, this is back into the old COSO, we would breakout a Jenga. You know the game Jenga with a blocks crafts and we wrote on it the components and all the issues and now we could see them with those principles and our illustration with to people was, hey can pull this piece out of those pants, you pull this out pants and at one point does it all fall down and what do you prefer for? Very much like your bar stool analogy.
Yes, I like my bar stool analogy because, then I can actually have some of, you know business expense reimbursement. Take everybody out and let's just say, well let's see. Let us see this in action.
That was so scary as always, that approach! You know and you mentioned that risk assessment, it is a great one because as you go down you find some other things that are so valuable. The whole introduction of velocity as a risk assessment factor really broadens and I have gone blank it's velocity, it's velocity and duration, that is the wrong word for apologize but you know beyond impact and likelihood that is another one that just makes people suddenly think deeper about risk and I will tell you this is the one thing that for a lot of people speak about it. You know internal auditors are supposed to be doing controls. We are supposed to be doing governance and we are supposed to be doing risk assessment. Looking at those at any level of the entity we are looking at were greatly controls. We are pretty good at governance. We do not do risk assessment well. We do not do any analysis or risk assessment that is why I really like that part of the COSO framework. It gives great direction so that I do not care what area I am looking at. Have they got a risk assessment process in place? Entity level, accounts payable level, whatever level it is.
Yeah and I want it now that you have kind of mentioned I want to dovetail on an item that I know or let us just you are gonna wanna buy which is you know I wanted to find out the inspiration of the book that you wrote called The Marketing Strategy, a Risk and Governance Guide to Building a Brand.
What's funny you mentioned bars because I was, no not really. Actually, I am gonna go back a little way and talk first about the social media one and this ties them with creativity, ties them with openness. My kids are big on Comic-Con San Diego Comic-Con they go annually and I was like everybody else where that social media and Twitter and all that was just narcissistic enabled and it wasn't dong much. When my daughter came back really kicked off. She said how this happened and I was following Warner Brothers and they twitted something and I did not get some swag and the fact when my son leave, wait a minute there is something here there is more than that. There is a group, there is a click. There is marketing, there is all that coming together. I happened to do some presentations on that and got together with Peter Scott who had co-authored with some social media booklet. Why is he telling you that? To tell you that then is we dug into it more and more. We realized that, yeah there is a big piece of social marketing, social media that is the marketing and how marketing knows it. That got us to look in more, more and more about the risks there. And the realization in the last study 11-15% of most organizations cost are going into marketing. And yet I know I could speak from our group we had probably done three out of that for advertising in the last ten years. I have talked to other auditors. Nobody is looking at it. Right off the butt that much money and internal auditors are not looking at it. And then the next piece was, they are really the ones in-charge of the name. They're in-charge of the brand and
in-charge of the reputation. And that is when Peter and I started working on and saying there something there, there is a big piece there and the more we dug into it, the recognition that, it was an area that is not hard at but because it is so much of the touchy feeling, it is so much of the market speak, I think auditors are afraid to approach it.
Well that and also, legal services and we need to say I can't touch them. It is this big black mysterious bubble but going back to the marketing piece, I am still a client. You got to get out of - you got to move away from compliance corner and so into the sales site because you, if you have a top producer. Let us say they are an outlier, right. They are in the top 2 or 5% okay of their peer group within the department. All I need to do is reverse engineer whatever this guy is doing or woman is doing. It is actually very simple. And one key aspect I have noticed, okay this is just my professional experience, you know what I have seen in the field is they are very persistent. Right, so it is a lot of scripting, it is lot of touch points but its persistence. And if you will not get out and you say look, the reason why you have this outlier is, they don't give up after touch point 3 or 4. They go all the way down to touch point 8, 9 and 10 and this is how they do it. Now, if you get the rest of your media for a sales team to do this and they cannot give up at touch point 3, they got to be keep going touching this contact at least 8 to 12 more times, do you follow?
It is a whole different ball game and then the light bulb turns on and I said, does this internal audit actually make some money and creates sustained ability in sales because you just reverse engineered your top producer. And now you are creating an audit program that you can monitor and say, Knock! Knock! Knock! I am coming every quarter! Where are you when your touch points per contact? Everybody has fear so I do not want you know hit when they say well you know two of you can do that. Put it in Excel, that is not the point. The point is somebody is got to be making the dial. Somebody is gonna make it, be making those meetings and they got to be producing. And when you reverse engineered, it could be up to touch point 9, 8, whatever. That is when you get that secret sauce and I do not know why internal auditors are so intimidated. Some of my gut feeling is, they feel like they can add value or they are not gonna get it or the sales could bargain and say, you are wasting my time but then again, we bug everybody else, the accounts department. We annoy certain department so to me it is like well, this is a no-brainer and sales people? I am not intimidated by sales people.
Well, there are two points you know, you mentioned both of these. The first is, __17:49__ also we are afraid of. We do not know and it is something we do not know. Somebody says they are talking about mission plans from marketing and we just get scared of that. That is easy to learn. But the other one ties in and what else you said which is that whole thing of well I love in here and love of other areas. Well, somebody that does not do internal audit job, somebody else should be doing it. The ubiquitous they, they know about it. Who is they? Who should be doing it? And more importantly, if nobody else is doing it, why should not we? There is a whole idea that we cannot value, that we can do it. We can do the context of a review. You go talk to the people and they say, who are you? Look, I do not know anything. I mean I have said for years that internal auditors survived because of the Palumbo approach. We just play stupid even if we do know what is going on. They explained it, we are taking their words back to them and saying, this is what worked. You talk about sales at Farmers Insurance, for years we audited 10% of our 17,000 agents. We have learned these practices and our work was partially you know, very localized control for two or three person operations. But within two years, we were able to put together a model of, by the way, we finished this but here is how you can make it run better. We were partnering with our sales department who was then supporting what we said and we were supporting what they said.
Yeah, was a good partnership and then actually, you actually get more buyings when there is future projects you know, the sales people or that whole department and you know what? It was a good working relationship. We are all were we saw a goal, we went, you know which is, we went with this goal in mind and we traveled this journey. And so when other things come up, it is kind of like, okay, this is a great partnership. It is not a combative relationship that you need to have with the other departments. It is not like, I gotcha! Which is I think it is the better approach.
And you were always building relationships 30 years ago got to know of that guy in the Marketing Department or Sales Department really well. He and I worked together out in the field, you know we did this kind of things, 15 years later, I am working in home office at a Manager level. He is the Chief Marketing Officer. The relationship we built, whatever we told him he was there for. Anything we suggested it, he was there for and we have him an advocate sitting in the C-suite.
Exactly and that, it is always nice to somebody there to see who construct the check to. So I wanted to shift gears in terms of skills set. When do you see in terms of lacking in skills of some internal auditors today or better yet, if you have a gap at skill set gap, is this is something not you know, you are same people just hey! Throw up her hand and say let us outsource this subject matter expert and move on.
Yeah, I mean the first thing I will say, we got a skill gap in creativity and innovation but I think I have reached about that one enough already. You know when you give more specifically to skills sets; I think it is the skill sets the gap. I have seen people talked about but I am seeing, I don't really that kind can be outsourced. I see - well, it is kind of a challenge. For example, so many people want to know about communication. So many people wanna know about critical thinking. So many people wanna know very specifically about report writing. How do I get skills of this? How do I bring my people up? How do I get those? What I find this so often. They are trying to solve the wrong problem so I am gonna use report writing as an example. Done a lot of training and report writing that I got lots of questions come up with that report writing and in verifying it is not a report writing problem. It is not basic audit skills problem. We are not reporting the true findings. We are not finding. We are not reporting the true root cause. Why? Because you did do any audit? You did not think about what the objective of the audit was since outset. So I think of a lot of the skills that breaks the people have are not skills sets they are just reinforcing the need for basic training and basic ideas that go on. I mentioned - well let us talk about outsourcing very quickly because I have seen companies try in outsourced report writing and that has been very interesting. I saw one group that brought in somebody that is specifically review for grammar and all that kind of thing. That went up in delaying the reports in extra two months. That was not the issue. But I do know another group who had three auditors assigned nothing but to write the report. Maybe not outsourcing but at least specializing I am not sure what specializing means. But specializing...
You are creating new words here Mike.
That is right! That is the way I work best. But that they found work and it was actually streamline it had phone issues. You know there will always be specialized areas within an operation and if you are not looking at them enough you are always gonna have to outsourced them. In Farmers Insurance, our actuaries do all these magic numbers and anytime we needed to look at it, we have to bring an expert for it. I have seen audit shops suddenly getting involved in construction audits. I have seen one to do it on their own. I have seen one to say we have not got the skills, we got to bring some expertise in and in has worked you know, some have worked, some have not. Depends on the skills set. I have always said that if you have been on internal audit, you can audit anything because again, it is just asking the questions and digging in it and finding it out. But there is no doubt, more specialization, more understanding and will help you find key things, all the way back to social media, I think a lot of people initially marketing works this way too. A lot of people initially think if I am gonna look at that, I am gonna have to outsource it. It is just an area I do not know. No, it is not that tough to catch up on. It is not that tough to find and I get to also developing the auditor, developing people, developing their understanding. I am a firm believer and people need to take control and learn how to do this kind of things and understand them rather than outsourcing because you will not develop the more you outsourced. You got to develop obviously but yes.
Then I have noticed that some internal audit groups, when they do outsource that they naturally gravitate towards IT, right? They say technology is changing way too fast and IT auditors are very expensive and then they leave after some of the years and there were tension saying is not that great so I may just outsource that right? It is not really that complicated. We had a scenario with the client where they actually built their own revenue recognition system. I need to know the price. I need to know the completeness, the changes, etc, I mean all your basic audit skills that I would do, I prepare to pay. I am looking at the same bubble of items you know for completeness, accuracy, system timeliness. So it does not matter that you created your own system. I am asking the right questions to the right IT people that developed it and getting to objective evidence to support conclusion of the report. I mean that is the nature of it. And then I have noticed this report writing issue as well because most people forget sometimes the audience and then they also forget about, what was the core objective like you have this audit program in the beginning because planning was done months, months and months ago. And they forget about that planning document, right? Because things might have been tweet and then all turn and so forth and it is like wait a minute, what was the original plan to begin with? You may tweet it, tweets a little bit and twitted, social media tweet your audit program but the point is that, they kind of forget about the storyline, right? From the planning and the middle piece of the story and then the final conclusion to say if you will know what happen because we have had scenarios where we are hoping, write a major report. We did it for Bill Bailey. It is a $6 billion bond fund and we started down the path and then we had to switch cues because the audit findings were telling us to go somewhere else and then we needed to rebound certain things. And so the final report we had to make that communication clear, right? Tell us somebody that story and the reason why what was the why factor of having to change it. But it is more of an art form rather than just a tick and tie so I do not know how people can really outsource report writing when you need to be part of the whole storyline from beginning to end and then to give results of, these are my added findings and I am getting somebody to write the report. I just - you are not really giving a lot of color to the main objective. I think that is a bad idea.
Yeah, well you know they say these were people that were internal auditors. They obviously have certain skills that they were used to have or have the challenge they were exactly facing to make sure that they understood the full story what I will say in a way it forced the auditors to make sure they understood and recognize how is all gonna impact the report writing process at the end because then again, that is what we forget. We are busy doing audit work and we forget what an audit report does. It provides such a fantastic structure plus you understand the work we did and then communicate.
Now, one thing, one day I wrote there and the other one it pops up a lot you know, this is the idea of the criteria. And I think very often people forget that part of it when testing against something and that is where if you do not know an area, it does not hurt. All you are doing when you are talking to it and establishing that basic criteria. What am I gonna test against? I may not know what a formula, is there anything else but I know that the 6% of __27:00__ aren't hitting the 20% of the __27:01__ then, I have got something to castigate.
Right. Exactly, you know sometimes a benchmark really some place to go to. Now, wanted to kind and get into some personal stuff with you. I have a story of how I got into internal auditing and I am sure you do too. So wanted our listeners to get a sense of how did you become an internal audit professional and more importantly, being in this profession for so long. 30 years is a long time, Mike.
Yup, I know. Well, I believe that in a former life I was a horrible person and so no, not really. Actually, I had an ex-father-in-law. I am gonna give you a long story. I played in bands to put myself to college two different times. I got an Archaeology degree. Take it from me, there is no money in Archaeology. So, I come back and it is time to go back in and find something real and my ex-father-in-law says, hey! The way to make money is in Accounting. Now he was wrong, do not get but, nonetheless, we ended into Accounting and learned and enjoyed it. So, I actually worked at Farmers Insurance and Farmers Insurance is a great place to work. I was not the only sort of that people who lasted 30 years, internal auditors have been there for a while great environment. But I went into Accounting. And for 6 months, I did the same thing six times in a row and I was bored to tears. So the auditors over there have a way too much fun the reason behind it so I joined it. Well what I found, just moved into such a great atmosphere to learn about an organization. I have always said the only people who know what is going on in a company are the internal auditors and the CEO. I am not sure about the CEO because we get the broad picture of operations. Well on top of that, I was incredibly lucky. Yes, kind of I lasted 30 years. Part of it was at Farmers environment. Farmers was internal audit environment and I worked for a number of managers, directors, chief audit executive who allowed to be as crazy as innovative as I wanted to be. And by the way if they happen to be listening, yes that is Kim, that is Jane, that is Mark, that is Sue, that is Dave had to do a quick shout out to. These are the kind of people that helped shaped me and allowed me to do what I wanted. But that man I got to do a lot of different thing. You talk to Dave about you know, generation XYZ whatever we are into millennial. How they are gonna have 15 different careers as they grow up. At least we will have that with internal audit. I did internal audit work. I was in-charge of fraud for awhile. I did develop training for awhile. The last that I have I was doing all the risk assessment, planning and scheduling and review of all the work we did in marketing and sales. So, one may gain in the opportunity to jump around and you know look for new things but they gave me that opportunity to really look for new things to innovate. Sometimes they did not know what I was doing. I went one co-worker and I went to one of our directors one time who said look this is what we wanna do. We played out this whole idea about brainstorming throughout all our operations and it gave us this look like Oh my gosh! There they a go again. But he said I do not really know what you are trying to accomplish but go do it because I have confidence in you. I heard a great line and this is something that he believed in. Creativity is like a joke. You do not understand until the end. You have enough successes with it or really spectacular failures that given you the chance but how did I last 30 years? It is fun. It is always new the organization is always evolving, so you are always learning new stuff and there are so many opportunities. That is how I landed up, making it that long and doing it that long is very much developing and what it was I wanted to do and wanna be in that. That is the thing it really works for me. I was told then to look that is your challenge. You have got to figure out what it is. You have got to find the opportunities. I cannot be in-charge of your development. I am more than happy to help you but you got to find what it is that wakes you up at night in the morning and makes you excited in order to get that.
When I was in _31:02_ there is a huge polling and survey being done throughout the organization and one of the common findings that they found, this was Scallop Poll that did it and they found that people who lasted longer, one of the criteria was not the money that they were getting paid. It was not the hours or the flexibility of the profession. It was - did they feel like they had a best friend at work. Right? They feel like they had that. And the description of that best friend was somebody that was you know, supportive, you know constantly pushing them to be working at the optimum level. That kind of best friend, not the best friend that hey! Let us go, have a drink afterwards. It was more of hey! I am here, this is a colleague that is actually more than just a work but it is somebody who really has the best interest of me and my growth potential here at the firm. And that was the secret that come out of the people and a lot less about, did we give them the latest laptops to use or the software training. It was about the environment and the people and encouraging people to do their best every single day when they showed up at work. So it is very, I kind of suspect it that was gonna helpful for you to stay in one organization for 30 years. It was definitely, it sounds like the people.
Yeah, well that is a fantastic point I think back when I first made the move to home office without having to move to LA and live in Phoenix my whole life that is another story entirely but anyway, there is this gentleman who came in at the same time I did. He is somebody I can see was very much that way. This is clear back when Tom Peters who first coming out with this information. You know a lot of changes going on. He introduced me to so much of that. He became that person that I could bounce those ideas - I mean just led me to a whole new level. And that was so instrumental in my becoming more than a halfway this in internal auditor by becoming broader than that and being able to accept the new and different ideas that was certain that have flourished at that point.
I think it is a great story. Well, Mike I wanna say thank you so much for being on our program today and I know our listeners will get sort of value and they can also look for on amazon.com your books that you published or co-authored, Business Process Mapping, Improving Customer Satisfaction and then Auditing Social Media, a Governance and Risk Guide and also the Marketing Strategy: Risking Governance and Guide to Building a Brand and then not to mention your up and coming summer book this year in 2014, Auditing Humor and Oxymorons. So again, thanks Mike for being on our program.
Thank you so much for the time Sonia.
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