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Attending to How "HOW" Works and Its Impact on ADHD

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Attention Talk Radio

Attention Talk Radio


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At its core, what do we mean when we say the word “how”? How does “how” work? What is the relationship between attention and how? Are there different kinds of how? How is it that some things don't work the way they are supposed to? How can understanding how “how” works help those with ADHD? In this episode of Attention Talk Radio show co-host Kirsten Milliken talks with Jeff Copper about his thoughts around the word “how.” You can expect them to deconstruct the word “how” to answer these questions and more. If you have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and want to gain insight on how to move forward, this is the show for you!

Attention Talk Radio is the leading site for self-help Internet radio shows focusing on attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and attention deficit disorder (ADD), including managing symptoms of attention deficit disorder, adults with ADD, or adults who have children with ADHD. Attention Talk Radio, hosted by attention coach Jeff Copper, is designed to help adults and children (particularly those diagnosed with or impacted by attention deficit disorder or its symptoms) in life or business who are stuck, overwhelmed, or frustrated. It will help adults and children get unstuck and moving forward by helping to open their minds and pay attention to what works.


0:02 Introduction

Shire is a leading global specialty biopharmaceutical company with the focus on helping people with life-altering conditions to lead better lives. While Shire's portfolio of ADHD medicines helps patient diagnosed with ADHD, we recognized the need to provide additional support to them and their families, and that's why we, at Shire, value our local, regional and international partnerships that are designed to develop and enhance programs to improve the understanding and awareness of ADHD. At Shire, people diagnosed with ADHD have our full attention. To learn more about Shire visit www.shire.com.

0:54 Introduction

Welcome to Attention Talk Radio. The show is centered around paying attention to attention with your host attention coach, Jeff Copper.

1:07 Jeff Cooper

Welcome everybody to this edition of Attention Talk Radio. We've got a great show for you tonight. The topic is attending to how and "HOW" it works and its impact on ADHD, and with me in my virtual studios with my co-host Kirsten Milliken.

1:22 Kirsten Milliken

Hi Jeff.

1:23 Jeff Cooper

How are you?

1:24 Kirsten Milliken

I am great. How are you?

1:26 Jeff Cooper

I am doing very well. I love how you __01:28__ a little how in there. It's a big topic tonight. __01:32__ tonight is May 23, 2012 at 8 p.m. Eastern standard time. Let's see, I am your host, attention coach Jeff Copper, this is Kirsten Milliken, and again, our topic today is attending to how and "HOW" it works. Let's get some -- just announcements out of the way real quick. If you didn't go, I mentioned -- I understand that the CHADD conference, the regional conference in Baltimore, Maryland last week. It was __02:00__ -- hopefully, you guys went there and had a good time but with that behind this, the CHADD's annual conference is scheduled for November 8th to the 10th in San Francisco, California. Go to chadd.org and to get more information on that and updates. This is CHADD's 25th year in nonprofit doing business so it is going to be extra special conference out there. Also, for our listeners, you can access more robust experience of Attention Talk Radio by going to our Facebook page at facebook.com/attentiontalkradio. If you're a person that wants to get our archives and see upcoming shows, you can get that all at there. But if you're not a person who likes to chase that stuff down, if you go to our page, and by the way, you did not have to be on facebook page to do this. Just go to that URL and there's a little tab, you click it on and you can put your email address in and get our by monthly newsletter. We will send you a list of upcoming shows right to your inbox. Did we miss anything Kirsten?

3:00 Kirsten Milliken

You're telling people how to act. That's great.

3:04 Jeff Cooper

There you go. Right, that's a great segway in today's topic. It couldn't heat up any better so let's just start off and say this -- Kirsten, Kirsten, when you think of the word "how", what is "how" mean to you and what is, what is, what is that all about?

3:20 Kirsten Milliken

Well, how actually brings up for me not always good feeling because I'm somebody who tends to jump right to the answer and so, how for me always means, "let's take it step by step, I want you to explain your whole process around this," which can be difficult for me sometimes. Because, you know, often times, we're talking about things that I've done many times and so I just come to an answer or it's something where -- it's a pretty simple process and so it's almost like tying your shoes. You don't think about it anymore. So, you know, how did you do that? I just did it.

3:55 Jeff Cooper

So, let me ask you this because I totally get your response on this and I think a lot of people would think in those terms, but let's go a little bit deeper. What is the essence of "how"? When -- "how," what's that really mean?

4:11 Kirsten Milliken

It's understanding the process (crosstalk) one of the things when you and I were talking is, you know, in my other life, I'm a psychologist and I do testing and some of the test that I do have a lot of data that gets put together to come to another piece of information that tells you something. And in my training, you have to do all of that long hands. So we had to know how to go through the process, what numbers went into making up an index score, so that we understood what the index score actually meant because it wasn't just made with one number. It was made of a bunch of information. So, for me, I think it has to do with not just having the end result, it has to do with you know what's above that, everything that got put in to that and got to that conclusion, and why, that information.

5:05 Jeff Cooper

That's interesting. That's interesting. I guess I'm going to make myself look kind of crazy so people like "what the heck is this guy think?" But, you know, when I think of the word "how", this is Attention Talk Radio, right?

5:17 Kirsten Milliken

It's Attention Talk Radio, I lastly checked.

5:20 Jeff Cooper

And it's really kind of all about attention. And to me, when I think of the word "how", it's -- "how" tells you what to pay attention to like how do I pay attention to this in order to get where I want to go. It's like attention is you can pay attention to everything all over the place, but "how" tells you, it narrows what you're paying attention to. It kind of __05:39__ you in so you're like pay attention to this and you'll be able to move forward where you'll get your answer. It was funny because when at first I already thinking about this, for the longest time I have been in attention coaching, "how" was always kind of there. I didn't -- I couldn't get my arms around it so I actually looked it up in the dictionary and it's an adverb. It's kind of conjunction. It can do a lot of stuff. But, to me, as an adverb, it was great because an adverb kind of modifies a noun and so to me, it's like -- an adverb is like an adjective describing a verb. So again, it is almost like it kind of brings focus to what you're kind of paying attention to, sort of a weird kind of way. And you can comment, you can say, "I am smoking crack over there". Kirsten, but to me, "how" is trying to focus, narrow what you're paying attention with specificity in order to accomplish what you want or where are you trying to go.

6:33 Kirsten Milliken

Absolutely. So you're focusing on what you're doing, not just doing it. So, when I say...

6:39 Jeff Cooper

What are you trying to say?

6:40 Kirsten Milliken


6:41 Jeff Cooper

When I say -- I said this multiple times. I'm very involved in boy scouts and I mean __06:46__ now if I walk to boys and say, "Listen, here's how you tie a square knot. I'm showing here, pay attention to what I'm doing because these are what you should be looking at as you tie square knot." It's like "don't go, do it that way, you could do that all if you want to." But I'll say, "Listen, focusing on this and you're going to be able to actually accomplish what you want to accomplish, what's _07:06_." It's kind of telling that person what to pay attention too.

7:11 Kirsten Milliken

Right. So I'm thinking if you've taken that word "how" out of that sentence, maybe I'm getting a little off topic from where you want to go. But if you just said, here's a square knot. The kids would just look at the knot. They may not even pay attention to the process that you're getting to that knot. But by saying, "Here, look at how I make the square knot." Now, he recognizes that he needs to see the process of it.

7:34 Jeff Cooper

Yeah. (crosstalk)

7:34 Kirsten Milliken

Not just the knot.

7:36 Jeff Cooper

Or let's just -- and let me just to me, let's just substitute attention for "how". Okay.

7:43 Kirsten Milliken


7:44 Jeff Cooper

Pay attention to it this way.

7:46 Kirsten Milliken


7:48 Jeff Cooper

So, again if you say pay attention to it this way or like even a simple like -- I read an article on this, which started this all mess. But how does one address the president, how does one attend to be the president. Again, it's bringing focus, "Here's what you do, here's what I want..." Pay attention to this and it kind of narrows that stuff on. So and where _08:11_ everybody at. I'm an attention coach so I pay attention on how things work and how they work, and I get he essence of how. So with that kind of framed out list from my little key brain, let's kind of go to -- I think what you would start in Kirsten and that is -- to me, there is like two kinds of how.

8:32 Kirsten Milliken

You said, there is insightful how.

8:36 Jeff Cooper

There is insightful how.

8:37 Jeff Cooper

And methodical how and we've talked about this a little bit. What's your interpretation of the two?

8:37 Kirsten Milliken

And methodical how.

8:48 Kirsten Milliken

I have to tell you that every time you talk about it, I always get a little confused because what I think it means -- sometimes I flip flop them.

8:54 Jeff Cooper


8:56 Kirsten Milliken

So the insightful how to me is really getting at the end, it is really understanding how for you something works.

9:07 Jeff Cooper


9:07 Kirsten Milliken

So, you know, somebody gives me a the top ten ways to get organized. That to me is a methodical how. It is very -- like you're given the answers with their shortcuts. And the insightful how comes from when you figured out how to get organized yourself and you understand that process how it works for you. So that's what I make of it when you tell me that there are two kinds, the methodical and the insightful how.

9:43 Jeff Cooper

Well, that's -- I'll tell you what, this is -- we're little early. We'll go to a commercial break just we can kind of get that out of the way, and we'll come back and we'll kind of dig in to this little bit and everybody out there will start to like I want to bring some ADD in here a little bit to understand how. I think this can help everybody out there. So let's go to break. When we come back, we'll talk a little bit about the differences. So with that, we'll be right back.

9:58 Commercial

Your life, your world, your choice this is Attention Talk Radio. We are CHADD, the nations leading nonprofit organization serving individuals with or impacted by ADHD. At CHADD, we provide information and help families and professionals to improve the lives of those with ADHD. On May 19th, CHADD will be putting on a one day education conference in Baltimore, Maryland. If you are impacted by ADHD, this is a must attend event. For details, go to chadd.org. Interested and exhibit our opportunities, call 240-487-2314.

10:31 Commercial

You deserve the best trained ADHD coach. Find one at the ADD Coach Academy, the only comprehensive ADHD coach training program accredited by the international coach federation. Go to addca.com and click on find a coach.

10:47 Commercial

I am Jeff Cooper, host of Attention Talk Radio. We're to talk to you about copytalk.com, a voice dictation service. This is not just some voice dictation software. It's a real dictation service by people who type whatever you want. When I need to document something, all I do is hit speed dial on my cell or work phone and start speaking. __11:02__ Copytalk types it up and email back to me that day. The best part is I can dictate as many four-minute messages as I want all for one flat monthly fee. Go to copytalk.com/atr and Jeff Cooper as the referrer's name and signed that for the free trial account today. If you tell them I sent you, then you'll get $20 off on monthly subscription for as long as you keep the service.

11:27 Commercial

Make every moment count with Time Timer, a sensitive solution for ADHD time management. It shows how much time is left using a bright red disc that gets smaller as time passes. To place an order for a Time Timer, all you have to remember is timetimer.com.

11:45 Commercial

This is your ADHD information station. Attention Talk Radio, you're listening to Attention Talk Radio and now, back to the show.

11:55 Jeff Cooper

Welcome back everybody. Kirsten and I are ripping "how" apart like there is no tomorrow.

12:00 Kirsten Milliken

One letter at a time.

12:01 Jeff Cooper

And it is great because before the break, you're a little confused by some stuff, which is the whole point of this show. It's to take a look out and see if we can bring some specificity to it and have some insights on really what's going on here. So, let me kind of talk to you a little bit about what I mean by methodical how and insightful how, and give a couple of examples and we'll see if we can sort this through, okay?

12:24 Jeff Cooper

Methodical to me is a step-by-step process that will get you what you think is an intended outcome, okay? Just because you go to that step-by-step process, it doesn't really mean you understand what you are doing. It just means you understand the process, the steps that you have to do to get to that outcome, okay? Insightful how is you don't need to know the steps. You can get there without the steps because you understand how it works. You can figure it out. Now, this intensity came to me when I was doing some stuff on Facebook and I would use his name and I wouldn't give him credit, but I don't want to throw his name out there just for confidentially reasons if you didn't want that done. But he used the word buttonology. I'm like "Wow! What is that?" and he used an example of long division. If you had a calculator, you can understand the sequence of buttons that you need to push, you know, take 35,365,000 and hit the divide button divided by 444.625 and hit the equal sign and you'll get the answer, right?

12:24 Kirsten Milliken


13:39 Kirsten Milliken


13:40 Jeff Cooper

That's methodical. I know how to, I know how to do long division. Give me this tool, I go step by step by step and there is the answer.

13:49 Kirsten Milliken

Okay. So I know how to calculator works.

13:52 Jeff Cooper

Well, you know how to push the buttons to get the calculator to give you an answer, but if you do not understand how to do long division and you didn't have a calculator, you wouldn't be able to solve the problem. Does that make sense?

14:06 Kirsten Milliken

Alright. Yeah.

14:07 Jeff Cooper

And understanding something from an insight how something works insightfully is I mean, it's pretty you have to spend its work. Whereas if you just give me the steps, it's easy. That's like the shortcut. I can kind of follow the steps. And so, another example that's similar to buttonology that I like to use is the remote control. I have cable on my house and I've got three or four remote controls at each place. You push this button "di-di-dit..." and another button to push is to kind of get there. But if I go to somebody's house, they got like satellite. It is a different system and if I don't understand how it's all interconnected, then I can't necessarily and totally figure out how to do it without knowing what buttons to push like the sequence of it, does that make sense?

14:55 Kirsten Milliken

Absolutely, it makes sense. You won't be able to find CNN on a standard remote.

15:00 Jeff Cooper

Exactly, exactly. Because I don't know you got to tell me the buttons, but if I really understood how everything, the networking of all that stuff work, you could probably sit down with all remotes and figure out how to get there. And so, to me, those are the differences and to me, our world -- the marketers are trying to sell you insightful solutions. Do this, you know, just do these two things and you'll kind of get there. But so many times to me when you're applying the obvious solution, the methodical how, and it's working, then you're not paying attention to the right thing.

15:40 Kirsten Milliken


15:41 Jeff Cooper

Is this helping?

15:42 Kirsten Milliken

It is. So let me think of one of the things that I was thinking is you were saying this especially in regards the remote control. Methodical how is almost as if you have the manual, then you know what the steps are. But if you have the experience, then you'll have the insight of how.

16:06 Jeff Cooper

Well, you can have experience, right?

16:09 Jeff Cooper

And still not have insight. But you can't have insight really unless you have the experience of figuring that out. Again, experience is one of things -- as you could have experience executing long division on a calculator all day long, but it still doesn't really -- you don't really get...

16:09 Kirsten Milliken


16:26 Kirsten Milliken

So how do you get then to that level where you have insight?

16:31 Jeff Cooper

Well, that thing -- that's when you, you get to know something and how it works, not just how it works but why it does what it does.

16:40 Kirsten Milliken

Okay. Another three-letter word. Okay.

16:47 Jeff Cooper

Good point. So let's take this conversation to ADD lecture a little bit.

16:52 Kirsten Milliken


16:53 Jeff Cooper

Separately, you and I were having a conversation not related to this, but organization is a big issue for those with ADD.

17:01 Kirsten Milliken


17:02 Jeff Cooper

And what's interesting to me is there are so many people who walk in and you go to self-help section in the bookstore or whatever. Let's say, "Okay, here's what you going to do." So let us just take organization. Somebody with ADHD needs to get organized, right? And I can see somebody walking in and say, "Okay" like a professional, "Okay, let's get some file folders out. Let us get some magic markers out. Let us get some boxes and trays and here is how you do it".

17:30 Kirsten Milliken

You are at my house a couple of months ago, weren't you? Do you know how many boxes I am trying to get rid out of my office right now because I finally figured out that when somebody goes in, something goes into a box for me, I don't see it anymore. But when that organizer was here with me telling me the best strategy for organizing things in my office, what she did not know was that for me, I'm visual.

18:01 Jeff Cooper


18:02 Kirsten Milliken

If I don't see it, I can't take care of it so I am not really organized just because it's in a box.

18:08 Jeff Cooper

I love what you said. If you can't see it, then you're not really organized. That's the essence of this because you don't work like that. If you don't see it, it's outside of the mind, that's not organization. That's just -- you might as well match to it and get rid of it.

18:28 Kirsten Milliken

Yeah. I mean that creates more chaos for me because then my bills aren't paid or my projects aren't done because I've forgotten them. So that's not organization for me.

18:38 Jeff Cooper

It's not organization for you. So what I'm hearing you say is how you work is your visual and how it works for you is you've got to see it.

18:45 Kirsten Milliken

I do and so often times. You actually pointed out to me one day when I said, "You know, I think I need to clean up. My desk is a mess," and we had a conversation and I came to realize that my desk wasn't actually a mess. All the things that were in front of me were things that I needed to act on. It wasn't a lot of extraneous stuff in my work space. It was all the stuff I needed to act on because I needed to see it to remember that I had to act on it. So I was actually organizing, it just did not look organized the way other people might think.

19:19 Jeff Cooper

Yeah. Well. So what I'm hearing is when you looked at your desk, everything on it was your to-do list.

19:23 Kirsten Milliken


19:24 Jeff Cooper

It wasn't a list like -- well, when you think of list, you think of a picture. I believed __19:28__ end of the day, but it kind of goes down too. If you understanding how you work insightfully, well, it's going to be -up for me. I need reminders, I need prompts, I need this visual-type stuff. Now, we're starting to get some insight on how you naturally organize yourself.

19:43 Kirsten Milliken


19:44 Jeff Cooper

And if somebody sat down and said, "Here is a file folder. You're supposed to do it like this, right?" you might __19:49__ over and over and over and put those file folders away, and forgot the bills and never pay it because that's the methodical that you're supposed to get organized, but that's not how Kirsten works.

20:00 Kirsten Milliken

Exactly. So now, I'm understanding that insightful how isn't just about the experience of being organized, it's about understanding why I need to do it a certain way.

20:11 Jeff Cooper

Based on how you work.

20:11 Kirsten Milliken

That's right for me.

20:12 Jeff Cooper

That's right.

20:13 Kirsten Milliken

Based on how I work.

20:15 Jeff Cooper

And another example is, and I get -- procrastination is one of my favorite because if you go out, then you read stuff on procrastination. You know, you're supposed to sit down and chunk it down and put timers and do all that kind of stuff. Don't get me wrong, there are some stuffs that's there. But at the end of the day, what's interesting to me is there's a lot of people I find procrastinating because they don't know what to do. They are not very clear or something like that, and if they -- when I am working with them. If I can help them, I'll say, "Okay. Listen, you're not clear on what to do or you don't know where to find something. You don't really want to do. Let's find out how you naturally become unclear. However, you become unclear, how you naturally do that is how you do it so let's not worry about the procrastination part. If you're procrastinating something because you don't really know what the next step to do, let's focus on how do you naturally try to figure out what to do next or how to find it."

21:09 Kirsten Milliken

Right. So if I keep paying attention to procrastination, I'm likely to keep on doing it.

21:12 Jeff Cooper


21:13 Kirsten Milliken

So you now need -- you are looking with them at how do you do something besides procrastination.

21:19 Jeff Cooper

Well, number one, the issue is this is all locked up but -- number one, understand, understand really procrastination at a deeper levels, not just -you are not interested. But sometimes, there is marker. It's repetitive and boring or you're not really clear on what to do or you don't know how long it is going to take you. Sometimes, it's nice just to rearrange your sock door because, you know, you got something accomplished whereas you can sit and go and search for something on internet might take you all day. So once you get to that, once you get to the epicenter of what you're procrastinating on, but the issue at that point in time is okay, when I am not clear or when I have a repetitive boring routine task that I procrastinate on, how do I make it stimulating so I can do it or how do I become clear on what I should do. And, as an example, there is a lot people that I've worked with that they're procrastinating on repetitive boring routine tasks, but how they make it interesting is either talking on the phone or listening to audio books or -- there is a variety of different type of things, but that's how they bring stimulation to the party and for them to be able to do, to be able to sit and do task that are repetitive and boring.

22:31 Kirsten Milliken

That's interesting. Because this week, with three kids that I've worked, I've had the conversations with them and their parents about having to do chores and how painful it is for both their parents and them because they have really no interest in it. It doesn't capture their attention. And so, talking about what would help that situation, you know, how can they do the task and feel engage in it. Is it doing it with somebody else because they like the social aspect of it, is it playing music while they're doing it because that makes it exciting? So, yeah, how do you engage your brain?

23:06 Jeff Cooper

How do you engage your brain? And so, this is what -- this is why I wanted this topic is this how -- we're segregating those two, but it's still nebulous a little bit because like "how" is, it's this thing out there because you don't really know how something works until you get it. Once you get it, you understand it, right?

23:25 Kirsten Milliken

Absolutely. But how do you that you got it?

23:29 Jeff Cooper

What's funny, you know that you got it when everything makes sense.

23:34 Kirsten Milliken


23:35 Jeff Cooper

And I'll tell you what. Let's go on to take a break real quick so we get that kind of done another way. We'll come back and I got a personal thing on that. That will be kind of interesting and I'll be interested for your comments because I know we've never talked about that. So let's run to commercial. We'll be right back after these messages.

23:50 Commercial

You are listening to Attention Talk Radio. We will return in a moment. Your life, your world, your choice, this is Attention Talk Radio.

23:58 Commercial

Experience the difference with the topnotch ADHD coach. Find one at the ADD Coach Academy, the only comprehensive ADHD coach-training program accredited by the international coach federation. Go to ADDCA.com and click on "find a coach".

24:15 Commercial

Make every moment count with Time Timer, a sensitive solution for ADHD time management. It shows how much time is left using a bright red disc that gets smaller as time passes. To place an order for a Time Timer, all you have to remember is timetimer.com

24:33 Commercial

I am Jeff Cooper, your host of Attention Talk Radio here to talk to you about copytalk.com, a voice dictation service. This is not just some voice dictation software. It is a real dictation service by people who type whatever you want. When I need to document something, all I do is hit speed dial on my cell or work phone and start speaking. The _24:51_ of Copytalk will type it up and email it back to me that day. The best part is I can dictate as many four-minute messages as I want all for one flat monthly fee. Go to copytalk.com/atr, enter Jeff Cooper as the referrer's name and sign that for the free trial account today. If you tell them I sent you, then you'll get $20 off on monthly subscription for as long as you keep the service.

25:13 Commercial

And now back to Attention Talk Radio.

25:16 Jeff Cooper

Kristen, great conversation.

25:18 Kirsten Milliken


25:19 Jeff Cooper

Great conversation. So, here's the thing. We never talked about this before. But when I got into this coaching business, I was kind of like what is this really all about. I went to coaching schools and I learn the tools and the techniques. I learn the methodical how.

25:36 Jeff Cooper

But sometimes, I would like kind of struggle like how does it, how does it all come together, how does it all work and I was like -- I have this quest because I got -- you know, if I am trying to look at how and think about how really means you can tell how demented my brain works. But I was like -- and I just wrestled with this for really long time and about the time we were starting Attention Talk Radio. I certainly call myself an attention coach because, honestly, I think coaching is really all about that. I blogged about this on Jodi Sleeper-Triplett or JST coaching website __26:09__ to me. I want to be clear. I'm not saying that I'm right everybody. I'm just saying that this is a - it came together for me from an insight perspective and I'm using this to kind of illustrate this methodical thing and that is, is there a coach who can't change anybody. Your behavior will change if you change what you pay attention to. And I have called myself an attention coach for the longest time because I think it more represents what a life coach, a personal coach, or an executive coach is all about. Our job is to help people pay attention to things that they weren't previously paying attention to or look at differently. One of my favorite examples particularly with those with ADHD is this. Those with ADD, it's like they were born left-handed in a right-handed world. We think about -- I like to present this because like 90% of the people left handed and like 95% of the people don't have ADD or whatever. But you can identify with this because if all the solutions are right-handed solutions and you've been paying attention to them and then one day, you pay attention to the fact that you're left handed. The solutions become obvious, use a left-handed set golf clubs.

25:36 Kirsten Milliken


27:21 Jeff Cooper

It didn't change you. You are born left-handed. Your behavior change because you are using left-hand golf clubs, but it wasn't because they changed you, it's because you changed what you're paying attention to. And hence my -- one thing I say if the obvious solution isn't working, then you're paying attention to the wrong thing or you're paying attention to the wrong how. And a lot of times, I find those with ADHD are stuck because they're paying attention to the non-ADD solutions or they're paying attention to the way they think they're supposed to do it and they don't have any insight on how they work.

27:55 Kirsten Milliken

One of the things that I think of when you talked about that is also people who have ADHD are often used to things being hard.

28:05 Jeff Cooper

Oh, yes.

28:06 Kirsten Milliken

Right. Because they're trying to live in a typical world. And so they always think that if they're offered a solution and it's hard, it's not because of the wrong solution, it's because things are hard for them.

28:18 Jeff Cooper


28:18 Kirsten Milliken

So I always think too that when you find the right solution, it really shouldn't be that hard.

28:25 Jeff Cooper

You are - I like to accent, bold that. That was brilliant because you're absolutely right. Life doesn't necessarily have to be hard for the sake of being hard and some things that the easy the way. The hard is so overrated. Let's go with what comes easy, right?

28:41 Kirsten Milliken

Yeah. Do you think how much more we could get done?

28:44 Jeff Cooper

Yeah. We did a little bit of a show with Wilma Fellman and we are going to have her on everybody. Again, if you haven't heard that talking about talents and some other step, and one of the things that's interesting to me is that I've worked with countless people and that when you find an area that they're talented in, it's so funny. It comes so easy to them. They think everybody can do it.

29:01 Kirsten Milliken


29:02 Jeff Cooper

It comes so easy to them. They're not even conscious that they do it and it's so easy and natural that it's there. What's funny is a lot of times, they're trying to do it the hard way, which goes back to your point. It's that, It's that -- we're tying a few things together everybody. I hope you're not confused. We still have the two different kinds of how, but if you really totally get the insightful how and you get how something works, it all makes a lot of sense and it's easy, and if you have ADD, the idea really here is let's find how you work and the sign that you're on to how you work. It's when it comes easy.

29:39 Kirsten Milliken


29:40 Jeff Cooper

Not when it comes hard.

29:43 Kirsten Milliken

You pulled it together beautifully right there. It all makes sense.

29:48 Jeff Cooper

Well, __29.48__ it all up.

29:51 Kirsten Milliken

Let's pat each other on the back.

29:52 Jeff Cooper

There you go, there you go. For our listeners out there, I hope your starting -- one of the points of this show at least -- because this is a very different topic than what we've done is that how it works is really kind of a big deal. If you go out there in the world and think there is two different kinds of how, am I looking at methodical how. It's like __30.12__ by the way, I don't want to -- methodical how is fine. Earlier today, I had an issue with my Apple laptop because I had reformatted it and I needed to get a file off of the backup long, sort of it was like I talked to Apple, they sent me out about four layers. I'm talking to the high-level techs. They are coming into my computer. They fixed my problem, but along the way, the created another problem for me, and it's funny because I can't fix it because I don't know how it works. I don't have the insight on what they were doing. I've got to call and they'll probably spend another 2 hours on the phone with them tomorrow because I don't understand.

30:48 Kirsten Milliken

They told you to push a bunch of buttons.

30:50 Jeff Cooper

Well, they told me - I was __30.52__ and I went through and we set up admin route direct and I don't understand fundamentally what they were doing. As a result of it -- I know conceptually I think I know what happened.

31:05 Kirsten Milliken

Don't become a tech guy, Jeff. Certainly, that's not easy for you.

31:07 Jeff Cooper

No, no, no. I know it, __31:12__. But the idea really is sometimes it's okay to say, "Listen, I don't want to __31.17__. I just want the methodical answer. But a lot of times, if you really want to do something -- if you really wanna lose weight, then you need to realize it's a lifestyle change. It's not just eating South Beach diet because if you started to eat South Beach diet and you lose diet, then don't you really kind of have to eat that. You can't go back to what you're eating before, right?

31:38 Kirsten Milliken

Yeah. I think you're talking about life style change and diet. The other thing is thinking about getting diagnosed as an adult with ADHD and all of a sudden getting that insight as to how your brain works and how that impacts your thinking and behavior and using that information about how to do things differently and to make sense of yourself.

32:05 Jeff Cooper

Excellent point, excellent point. Understanding, that's how your brain works. It starts to take you down that insightful path of how you do it as opposed to methodically keep trying to weigh the things that you're supposed to do it.

32:25 Kirsten Milliken

Because as you pointed out, it tells you to pay attention. I need to pay attention to how my brain is working.

32:30 Jeff Cooper

Which is actually -- I'm glad, you've brought that up. We did a show with Dr. Barkley last March on his new executive function deficit disorder. I talked about countlessly since then because I think it really explains much more how ADHD work and what it's all about. And part of his show, he was talking about the six thinking tools. Number one, you need to inhibit automatic reactions and you got to be aware of it. You go listen to this show everybody. It was like March 21st or 28th of 2012. But the point that I'm trying to make is that in that process, he was talking about these six thinking tools, which only a person can observe, which in the coaching world, it's paying attention to what you pay attention to skills that are actually learned and observed the way you think to understand how you do it and understanding what's going on. When I work with people, the single greatest thing is to be able to notice what you're noticing because when she noticed what you're noticing, you can begin to see how your mind works and how your mind gravitates certain things and how certain things come easier for you and how other things can be more difficult for you, and then when she admits that delineation help, hard is overrated, let's go with the easy way.

33:45 Kirsten Milliken

Absolutely. I'm also thinking, you know, we've got some shows coming up too about helping other people to understand people with ADHD and (crosstalk) ADHD understand how they work and makes it so much easier to educate the people around them.

34:04 Jeff Cooper

That's a great point.

34:06 Kirsten Milliken

We could just keep going with this all night, I think Jeff.

34:08 Jeff Cooper

Actually, we could and if you got some time because there's a few other points that I want to make here. Do you have the time Kirsten?

34:16 Kirsten Milliken

I have lots of time.

34:17 Jeff Cooper

I can extend because, you know, the -- so many time -- I remember getting my MBA. I took organizational behavior and they talked about communication and all this kind of stuff and actually, I was taking it when I was working and I would go back to my office and __34:31__ "these things are really great" and I would sit there. You know, the world would start coming at me 100 miles an hour and people are coming in my office. Honestly, I was having a hard enough time dealing with them, but I was dealing with them and figuring myself out, much less trying to figure out the person that was in front of me and with all good intensions, I was trying to see different communications styles in this. But most people were clueless as to what's going on. After a while, I was __34:55__ I was more focused on myself and I thought to myself, "It would be so much nice if somebody could walk to me and reveal mystery of what works for them" and I've remembered that and as I have worked with people -- as we worked to help them understand how they work, it's so cool when they can like particularly things __35.15__ go to them and say, "This is what works and this is what doesn't work" and that person has a choice because you can say, "Listen, if you do it this way, you know I'll do it 100% of the time, but if you do it that way, you know I'm never going to get it done so which outcome do you want," and that person then can manage it because they know what works.

35:34 Kirsten Milliken

You know, I have a perfect example.

35:37 Jeff Cooper

Fire away.

35:38 Kirsten Milliken

I have a client and I know she'll be okay with me saying this. I've asked her permission. She is very visual and she works in an office and she has got all these appointments and things that she is got to keep track off, and so she likes to keep a little calendar on her desk. Well, her boss apparently thinks that this makes _35.56_ messy desk and has, on past occasions, gotten rid of this off of her desk and not told her where she put it. My client has ADHD and that upset her greatly and kind of set her __36:10__, and so she has been some good work and came to me the other day and said, "You know what Kirsten" she said, "The other day my boss did it again". She came in and I came in, my calendar was gone. I knew that she had done something with it. I couldn't find it. I took a deep breath and I went in and said to her, "I'm trying to organize myself. In order to organize myself, I need to see my appointments. In order to see them, it has to be somewhere on my desk so that I can see them, and when you take them away, it makes it difficult for me to get organized. I would really appreciate if you wouldn't do that again." And this is the first time that she has actually told somebody at work specifically that she needs a particular strategy for any reason at all in order to work efficiently and her boss was very receptive to it and she was so thrilled that she could inform somebody because she had awareness about herself and how she works and the come out of it was that her boss that she wouldn't do it again and in fact gave her brand new calendar and ordered it specifically for her.

37:15 Jeff Cooper

That's a great story.

37:17 Kirsten Milliken

That was wonderful. It was wonderful.

37:19 Jeff Cooper

Which, which, which -- I want to highlight because people listen to methodical how __37.22__ trying to sort through this stuff a little bit and one of the things that I want to highlight here is that human beings are similar.

37:29 Kirsten Milliken


37:30 Jeff Cooper

Similar is not the same. It means that we're different because if we were the same, didn't would be the same and I'm going to use this example __37.38__ time. A zebra and a Thoroughbred are both horse, but you wouldn't run a zebra in the Kentucky Derby and you wouldn't put a Thoroughbred on the Serengeti plain and expect it to survive. They are both horses, but they're very different. They are similar, but they are different. And so many times those with ADHD, they're looking as if they are the same as everybody else and then when you look at the same as everybody else, you let go. You're going to looking at methodical how. You're going to no longer looking at the insightful how. Your solutions are based on your differences, not in how you are you're the same and we did a show back -- oh God, years ago, _38:17__ about the many different versions of ADHD and based of the DSM-IV, whatever right now. You got to go and listen to the show. I think was like September or October of 2009. He did a mathematical calculation of all the different combinations of symptoms and I think he came out with like there is 18, 564 possible different combinations of ADHD and that doesn't take into consideration things like dyslexia that could go along with it or whatever or the severity of it. So the point is once you've seen one person with ADHD, you've seen one person with ADHD and your individual how, your insightful how is not like everybody else.

38:54 Kirsten Milliken


38:57 Jeff Cooper

One last point that I want to kind of bring up here Kirsten to your thought is that people look at how and they get kind of confused how things work compared to how they think they're supposed to work. Kirsten I have been having some conversations with an individual about doing a special week of shows on a particularly topic and one of the them is talking about 504 and IEP plan and stuff. And that space is very confusing to me and I've tried to do some shows on the past, but I was kind of like how can I do something here that made some sense and we got in the conversations about schools and what they're supposed to do and how the system works. The schools are supposed to seek out and help you find children and provide these services. That's methodically how it's supposed to work. But the insight -- the show that we hope to do is to show that it doesn't really work that way because on the school site, there is budgetary constraints, there is training issues, and many of them don't really know the rules and the laws and they are changing on how it really works. It's not really how you think that it works and the ideas -- we're hoping to kind of give an idea of the insightful how on that so that you need to understand how it really works and what those issues are so that when you go into the system, you can address how it really works not how...

40:18 Kirsten Milliken

You can pay attention to the system that you're working in rather than how it's supposed to be.

40:22 Jeff Cooper

Which is again is the insightful way of how it works. It's not necessarily the methodical way of how you think it's supposed to work.

40:29 Kirsten Milliken

Exactly. It's just going be a great conversation I'm really looking forward to.

40:34 Jeff Cooper

It is. There are several shows with that. We're still sorting through it. It's going to be good. The individual that we had on the show before is a great speaker and it's one of our __40.43__. There is one other thing I want to bring in to. It's that we have Wilma Fellman on a couple -- two weeks ago I think. It was talking about talents, enough talking about __40.51__. But if you look at it, we are trying to really essentially talk about the insightful side of how you really cast yourself in the right career as opposed to the methodical way and we've already talked to Wilma. We're going to have her on talking about just not the talents, but actually how you may be insightfully start to figure out how you cast yourself in the right position. So, now it's her, Kirsten, did we miss anything?

41:17 Kirsten Milliken

I don't think so. We got a lot in there for that one little word.

41:21 Jeff Cooper

We did. Hang on a second. Let me look and see if my notes have got anything else. Oh, oh, oh, oh yeah one last thing is -- I had a show I did a long time ago. It wasn't very good. It's has been taken down off of our archives. I was kind of last in the top 10 list and I say this because top 10 lists of solutions many times are nothing methodical lists and it drives me crazy. Because when you tell somebody with ADHD, "Here is the top 10 way to __41:49__ procrastination or whatever" and you look at that list, almost all of them are methodical because they're easy and the issue really is once you have focused on that list, it actually is like putting blinders on because you can't see anything that's not on that list. If you ever brainstormed with people and you asked them, somebody throws out an idea, everybody will laugh on that one idea. But if you ask everybody to write an idea down a piece of paper and come up, you'll end up with more ideas. Because when you hear something, it shuts down your creativity. You won't go through the work. You cannot do it and I say that because a lot of those people with ADHD, if you realize that most of the methodical list -- I will say, "Here's the five steps to do X." If that five steps to do X worked, then there wouldn't be a top 10 list. There would be a one list.

42:37 Kirsten Milliken


42:38 Jeff Cooper


42:38 Kirsten Milliken

Exactly and why only 10?

42:41 Jeff Cooper

__42.45__ so with that. Kirsten, have we covered it all?

42:48 Kirsten Milliken

I think we have unless you guys have something less that I don't know about.

42:52 Jeff Cooper

No. Everybody, I will encourage you. You can say we're absolutely crazy. I'm just an attention coach. I'm not a mental health professional or anything, but I work with people trying to do basic type step. Kirsten, you got a formal education with psychology side. I know that you're interested in coaching. We're not trying to say that, you know, we're __43:10__. This is the way the world works. But I do think is that if we made you think about this, that's all we needed to accomplish. Would you agree?

43:20 Kirsten Milliken

We were just sharing how we look at it.

43:23 Jeff Cooper

Yeah. This is how we pay attention to it. Maybe, you pay attention to it differently, but the key is if you have never consciously pay attention to it, it's a good exercise for you. Right?

43:34 Kirsten Milliken


43:35 Jeff Cooper

Alright. With that, Kirsten. Well, I'm going to catch you next week, right?

43:40 Kirsten Milliken


43:41 Jeff Cooper

We're going to have Patricia Quinn coming in. We're taking about the __43:43__ anniversary of Putting on the Brakes, which would be a really good show. So with that everybody, thank you very much. Have a great week and tell your friends about this show. Hopefully, you guys have a good time listening as much as we had doing it. So with that everybody, take care.