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LSAT Prep Options at Every Price: What you need to know

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Ann Levine

Ann Levine


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Panelists will include representatives from LSATFreedom.com, CambridgeLSAT, and Simugator.com. We'll discuss LSAT prep in all of its glory, how to prepare for the test using the online options available today (at reasonable pricepoints!) and we'll learn about 3 LSAT prep options never before discussed on the Law School Expert Blog Talk Radio Show!


0:04 Ann Levine

Hi, this is Ann Levine and welcome to the Law School Expert Blog Talk Radio show. This is our 13th episode and you will probably found us from the lawschoolexpert.com blog website or you have read my book, The Law School Admission Game: Play Like an Expert which is also available on audiobook or you may find this through usnews.com and then get a law school blog. No matter how you found us, we were glad you did and we welcome you to today's show. We will be discussing LSAT prep options at every price with economic circumstances the way they are and the rising cost of everything having to do with applying to law school. I have been trying to feature on this show different ways to prep for the LSAT and we've had a lot of formal LSAT prep representatives on this show and private tutors and today we are going to talk to people from three up and coming companies offering affordable LSAT prep assistance and products that you can use in conjunction with self study or with the formal prep structure and I would like to welcome my three guests today, I will tell you who they are and then tell you a little bit more about them. Here is Morley Tatro who is the owner and founder of Cambridge LSAT. Welcome Morley.

1:19 Morley Tatro

Hi thanks.

1:22 Ann Levine

We also have Ron DeSantis who is from LSAT Freedom. Welcome Ron.

1:28 Ron DeSantis

Well thank you.

1:30 Ann Levine

And Mike Wilkos who is the managing director of SimuGator. Hey welcome Mike.

1:34 Mike Wilkos

Hey Ann. Thanks for having me Ann tonight.

1:36 Ann Levine

You are very welcome. I am glad to have you and I am going to give a round of little bio for each of you so we can understand a little bit more about you. I will start with Morley from Cambridge and Morley you have decided while you applying to law school in times like that, you are more interested in the LSAT in the science behind it than you were in becoming an attorney and you have been an LSAT tutor for quite a while and you conceive of the Cambridge LSAT as the ultimate online LSAT resource center and you have offered LSAT logic games solutions as well as other LSAT by type books available on the Amazon so Morley we are glad to have you here today and we also...

2:16 Morley Tatro

Thanks for having me Ann. We really appreciate it.

2:19 Ann Levine

You are welcome and Ron from LSAT Freedom is one of the founding fathers that graduated magna cum laude from Yale and after scoring on the 99% on the LSAT graduated cum laude from Harvard Law. We promise not to hold any of that against you Ron.

2:36 Ron DeSantis

Thank you.

2:37 Ann Levine

You've been an LSAT tutor in a variety of capacity and sounds like since 2002. And last, we have Mike Wilkos who is the managing director of SimuGator formerly known as the LSAT Proctor and you are a __02:53__ so thanks for making time for us Mike. I know you are busy interviewing for __02:57__ and we are glad to have you.

3:00 Mike Wilkos

I am glad to be here and thank you.

3:02 Ann Levine

You are welcome. I thought it was great that you had a very typical experience when you were taking the LSAT and being surrounded in a very distracting test environment not conducive at all to concentration and that, that was really the test for LSAT Proctor and what you do to help people combat their test day anxiety and I also talk quite about allowing students to review test centers on your website so I look forward to hearing more about all of your programs and in fact that's how I'd like to start. I would like you to -- let's go in that order for organization's sake and have you guys each give me a brief one to two minutes description of your company, your product, your website and what you do in the LSAT realm so let's start with you Morley.

3:47 Morley Tatro

Okay. Thanks Ann. Cambridge LSAT was designed for those who read and self studying or prepping under the guidance of a tutor. We have diagnostic tools which allow students to identify their weaknesses and products to address those weaknesses. On the website, we have all 60 available number of prep tests both as full-length test and there's the individual sections and when customers purchase materials from our site, they are sent an email with links to instantly access and print those materials so because our materials are printed on demand, students can purchase that little or as much content as they want and our site really offers the ultimate flexibility. We have individual sections which are priced as low as $125 and our most expensive offering which is called the ultimate prep package is a $196. We have also recently released a number of books all of which are available on Amazon including as you mentioned LSAT logic games solutions manual and our LSAT by type series, the solution manual which is currently 35.95 that covers prep test 1 through 50 and it also includes print access to the most recent solutions and each of our LSAT by type books groups problems according to question, game or passage type and presents them in order of increasing difficulty. So our products really put big prep resources in the hands of students at approximate price.

5:18 Ann Levine

That is great, thank you. Mike how about your site?

5:22 Mike Wilkos

Thanks again for having us. The founding of SimuGator, it really began in June 2007 when I first took my LSAT and as you alluded to, I had a horrible testing experience. I took my LSAT in the Philadelphia Convention Center which had a huge room of about 200 students and on top of that, the events staff that night was preparing for a concert so there was constant noise and banging and distractions that is just completely undermine to my concentration. So, during the summer between my first and second LSAT administrations, I helped to create the virtual LSAT Proctor DVD which is now called the SimuGator LSAT edition DVD which I then used to prepare for my second LSAT. And what our DVD is it is a complete LSAT stimulation to use along with your prep test. So it is an easy way to be proctor your prep test. You just click play once and it sets things in motion, tells you when to start when there is five minutes remaining and when to stop each section but on top of that...

6:40 Ann Levine

Does it has something you know sort of jumping in and ending early like some proctors like to do and say "Oh never mind, keep working" and totally messing you up.

6:48 Mike Wilkos

We have a lot of distractions...

6:50 Ann Levine


6:51 Mike Wilkos

On the DVD that is probably the horror story I've experienced. Very few test takers experience that but what our DVD does in addition to proctoring their LSAT very easily it also has built-in distractions which you can turn on or off which help build your color into distractions that can lower your score. So in addition to with this DVD, we also offer a LSAT blog on our website where we recently started to post free LSAT video lessons on YouTube. We also offer free reviews of every test site in the United States so if you are concerned about where to take the LSAT whether you are concerned about test site or location or parking, you can just go to our LSAT radar and the short address for that is lsatradar.com. Use the password, you can use the password Ann Levine which we activated tonight to get on to our free radar system and you can read reviews from thousands of students who are taking the LSAT. So to make the long story short since I made the SimuGator DVD, my score increased 10 points and I received a scholarship to law school and today we've helped over -- we've helped thousands of students combat their test day anxiety and we have also helped spread awareness that you should be taking your prep test under actual conditions for the test's possible preparation for test day.

8:33 Ann Levine

I think that is great and in fact about a year ago I met with __08:37__ have they offered their proctor test and I was telling him "No, you got to get up, you get us more coffee, you got to talk while they're working" and ever since then, they've incorporated that too so I think that is great. Ron what about you? Tell us about what you are offering?

8:58 Ron DeSantis

Sure Ann. Thanks again for having us. Like I was introduced, I am Ron DeSantis, I am from LSAT Freedom and our philosophy is we are trying to liberate students from this kind of tired old situation where you have to pay a lot of money for like a really expensive course, you may get inexperienced instructors, they may be following some gimmicks that are somewhat ineffective and they are not transferred to the exam you actually take and then the lecture schedules are inconvenient. So what we are doing is we offer a web-based LSAT course. We focus on the most recent exams I think we go back to prep test 50 and we do video explanations for every question on the exam and then we also have a library of video tutorials that go over a number of the important skills and number of important question types and work through those for students so those would be a kin to what should get in like a lecture hall and then we also offer eBooks and study guides. We have an eBook on LSAT Anxiety. We have one on logic games and writing different things all the time. What we are instituting right now and it should be done within the week is we are instituting a message board feature so if you sign up for our service, you want to go over the logic game section from PrepTest 57 when you go. You pull off the video and you're like, "Man, I'm not really sure how that one works". Well there will be a message board featured underneath that you ask your question and then one of our instructive response could be a written explanation that are intended to provide video explanations for those questions. So that's kind of our basic -- how it look.

10:47 Ron DeSantis

The reason why we started this, we are pretty new company as we saw with the bad economy, we have a lot of us who were experienced instructors but we saw that a lot of people would probably have difficulty affording some of this test prep so we wanted to offer a more cost effective way to do it especially for students who may be short on money and then people who are out of work because of the tough economy so it is much more difficult to cuff up 1200 bucks and it would be our packages range from 199 to 299 and 399 as we have three levels of packages and we thought that that would be something that people would like, but obviously I do not want to sacrifice quality. We are the only LSAT test prep that has been created exclusively by graduates of Harvard Law School. So with our experience and with having gone, scored well and gone to a good law school, we think students will have the confidence to know that they're going to be getting a good product and at the end of the day that's what it's all about to be able to help them do better on the exam and get in to the law school of their choice.

11:52 Ann Levine

Thank so much Ron. It's like what've you've just mentioned about who the right person is for your products and the need you are trying to meet, it's a great segue into what I'd like to know from each of you which is who is the right person for your program and the reason I say this is I hear from a lot of people through the blog and people who read my book and my own client too, you know there are different kinds of LSAT takers. So you've got those that are just naturally brilliant to some extent and just need direction and need to be told sort of what to study and they learned it by themselves just fine and you've got the people who you know no matter what they do they are not going to be good-standardized test takers. They are taking practice tests, they are getting in a 140s, they are really struggling -- I've gotten three emails this week from people whose LSAT scores are in the high 140s and low 150s and they are asking me how are they going to get into the top 20 law school. Which are these people or who in between do you think would benefit the most from what you are offering? I would go back with Ron and start with you.

12:54 Ron DeSantis

Okay great. Yeah, that's a very important question. I think we gear towards the college students because of our cost. It is not very -- you need to drop over 1000 dollars so when you graduate college - You know some people obviously have means in their family, but a lot of people may not have that much so that's one market. The other market is people who are out of school who may not have time or access to get to a lecture hall. I mean if you work in like a suburb of a big city, I mean it is very difficult to leave your job and go in some place downtown with traffic and then with people bouncing other things other than work. And then the third kind of niche is we are instructors and all or most of them like individual tutoring before and we noticed a lot of students who would take Kaplan and it was usually Kaplan not a single amount but that was just the way it was and they do it. You know I took this Kaplan course and I just don't understand how to do a logic. I don't understand how to do this so we thought there are people who go through some of this test prep and some of the companies just aren't giving them what they need. So if you are one of those people or packages, or prize competitively enough to where -- if you find yourself a month ago with the exam, you don't think you have a good handle on it well you could do ours as a supplement and not have to kind of double down or break the banks to do it. So those are kind of the three main areas that I think they were trying to appeal to.

14:25 Ann Levine

How about you Mike?

14:28 Mike Wilkos

Our target audience is really anyone taking the LSAT. Taking LSAT courses and reading LSAT books is important, but also taking countless LSAT prep test is equally important if not more important to achieving a high LSAT score and using analogy...

14:50 Ann Levine

(Crosstalk) Sorry to interrupt. I just want to tell you I'm always amazed when I talk to people and they are telling me like right about now three weeks before the LSAT that their scores are plateauing and telling, "Well, how many prep tests have you taken?" and they'll tell me "Oh, I've taken two, my diagnostic and then Kaplan gave one last week" and I am like "Are you kidding me?"

15:06 Mike Wilkos

Exactly. Yeah. Courses -- well I know for a fact to that Kaplan offers four diagnostic tests which is not enough. So if you make the analogy to sports specifically basketball you know, you can practice drills and dribbling and making three-point shots, but that's not going to prepare you for the real game. To prepare for a game day or test day, you have to actually do what you are training to do. In this case taking as many LSAT prep test under actual conditions that you can take. So anyone can benefit from our DVD. It's also especially useful for those who suffer from LSAT test anxiety. So because it raises the importance of studying under actual conditions, it will help those students to become desensitized due distractions present in their testing environment. And it still also becomes familiar with LSAT test day procedures. You know, believe it or not, many people who did not practice with a five-minute warming actual go into panic mode on test day when the proctor yells it out for the first time. Lastly, our product is useful for those who have a hard time focusing. So when you are at home alone taking your LSAT prep test you might get distracted, you might want to turn on the TV, watch your cell phone. I know I personally wanted to play with my new dog that my family just got, but the DVD keeps you motivated and it's essentially kind of like a study partner. So it just keeps you focused, the sections move along just like the real test and this reduces the temptation to take a break which is necessary to achieve a high score.

16:53 Ann Levine

That's great. Okay. Morley we are back to you. You are still awake right?

16:57 Morley Tatro

Still here.

16:58 Ann Levine

Okay, awesome. So tell us about Cambridge and the right person for Cambridge?

17:05 Morley Tatro

Okay, great. Our -- as I mentioned previously, our target customer are the types of people who are pretty self-motivated because in order to make use of some of these question groupings or individual sections or test, you need to be able to get down to business. And it can either be a person who is working out of bucks. There are obviously a lot of fantastic self-prep books out on the market or a person who is working under the guidance of a tutor who can provide some type of structure and give them an idea of "Hey, these are your weaknesses. These are the areas that you should be focusing on". Which as I mentioned before, we also have a test tracking spreadsheet on the website which allows people to input their answers for a lot of the most recent tests as well as the super prep test and it gives them detailed feedback on what areas they should work on. The other group that could derive some benefit from our products are people who are in full length prep courses who may not have access to a whole ton of diagnostic tests. This avenue gives them the chance to buy any other test they may want to take and we also offer five-section test which more accurately simulate the test day experience because you will have an added fifth section when you take the test which is unscored. So the benefit of using our five-section test is that each section has consistent formatting because if you would create a five-section test on your own, of course you probably know which section you put it in. Well, the good thing about this is that you don't know until you actually look at that answer key, so hopefully when you print out your materials you turn a blind eye to the answer key and then be honest with yourself.

19:10 Ann Levine

That's great, I was actually going to ask -- I assume that this is the case but I was actually going to ask Mike, do you do it for five sections, I mean when you're doing the DVD?

19:21 Mike Wilkos

We do. Our DVD has five sections. It also even has the writing sample. The students want to practice that. We advised students, if they don't want to use Cambridge's 5-section LSAT which actually sounds like a great idea what you can do is buy old LSAT and take a section from those and add those to your most recent test and treat it real and concentrate, take it seriously and that will help assimilate the testing experience.

19:51 Ann Levine

That's great. Now, we are just a few weeks away from the October LSAT and I guess this question is more geared towards Ron and Morley because I think it is pretty obvious like how SimuGator can help in this situation. But for people who are three weeks away from the October LSAT, obviously they are taking more of the prep courses probably the DVD is going to help them a lot at this point. Ron and Morely, I'd like to hear from you guys on how you think or whether you think what your offer can be use like people who are three weeks away and just really hoping to punch things out in the last three weeks. Ron, I'll start with you.

20:29 Ron DeSantis

Okay yeah, I think so. We priced it in a way that it can serve as a supplement and with LSAT Freedom we are providing different types of explanations about the different types of questions that you are going to see on the exam. So we focused on explaining over obviously having been familiar with the whole sweep of the exam, how the test maker thinks and how they try to trick people. For example, we have a tutorial that is the seven deadly sins of the LSAT and it basically goes through and shows seven repeated way that could be identified over a number of exams to where the test maker is getting people to make a certain logical error. So in that respect, I mean they might have gone to a different type of test prep. They may have just been doing it on their own and they may not have it as crystallized like that and we show them exactly what to look out for and we show them ways that are just repeated time and time again. Not just one example but I think if someone wanted to go on, we have a number of lessons in respect of many of the explanations that we have that can serve as a great last minute prep to try to bring clarity to what obviously could be a very nerve-wracking experience.

21:48 Ann Levine

So it sounds like what you're doing is you are not trying to talk, people knew the series or ways to plan out their answers to the LSAT questions so there is no like good vibes in studying with TestMasters books and then all of a sudden I will go to your stuff, I'm going to be confused. It seems like you guys are going to write - clearer writing to the basics and explaining things. I just want to make sure that my impression is correct there.

22:14 Ron DeSantis

I think so and the reason why we do that is because I think certain test prep companies can device certain tests or different techniques that they could use and some of the techniques are effective, some less so but our thing is that you really -- if you get ready to those techniques then when you try to apply that to new circumstances, it is not going to probably be a perfect fit. I mean those people who write the test they know how to trick people up. So for us if you have kind of gotten down that road and that's what you like to do, that's fine. We are not going to teach you. We are not going to reinvent the wheel so as we can teach you new types of little techniques or whatever. We are going to explain to you the basic principles of the exam and try to crystallize that in a way that you can understand so that if you are already done Kaplan techniques or Princeton Review or TestMasters, you can then be able to kind of use our information to supplement your understanding rather than have to completely tear down watch you've learnt and then start again.

23:14 Ann Levine

Thanks Ron. Alright, Morley how about you? What do you think the last three weeks here?

23:19 Morley Tatro

Yeah, these last three weeks actually are a great time for people to really hunker down and decide, "Okay these are the particular areas that I want to focus on until test day". In addition to taking full-length test which they should definitely be doing, the can be using our by-type groupings to nail down particular weaknesses. For instance, if somebody has the difficulty with the flaw questions in the logical reasoning section, they can instantly purchase that and print that grouping so they can really drill those. And as I mentioned before the ordering of each of these particular groupings is such that they get more difficult as you do more and more problems so that as your skill level increases, you are being faced with more challenging material. And additionally, the Solutions Book is also very helpful too because with logic games, you can actually derive a lot of benefit from redoing games and one of the great things about having solutions in one place like that is that you can easily have a reference to look back to after you completed the game and look through it on your own to say, "Okay, maybe there is a more efficient way of doing this" and then you can work to incorporate that particular whether it'd be a diagramming style or just a way of approaching a question you can work to incorporate that into your own problem solving methods.

24:58 Mike Wilkos

And if I could just actually add three quick points right here to help October perspective test takers.

25:07 Ann Levine

By all means.

25:08 Mike Wilkos

Sure. There are three things you should do if they are unsure whether they should postpone.

25:15 Ann Levine

Oh this is my next question perfect. Go right ahead.

25:18 Mike Wilkos

Okay great. So it is a great segue. So one, ask yourself, what LSAT score do you need to get into the school of your dreams and you do this by, in part, using the LSAT GPA calculator on LSAT.org. So that will help you give a good prediction of what LSAT score you need. Two, ask yourself what are you scoring on your LSAT PrepTest because those are going to be the best indicator of how you will do on testing and your score is not magically going to jump up on test day so use those as an indicator. And three postpone if you have to. There is no harm on that. Some people don't want to postpone because they don't want to delay going to law school year but definitely not...

26:05 Ann Levine

So those who are excited.

26:07 Mike Wilkos

Exactly. It is not the worse thing and we are also aware that Ann Levine could work for magic and get you for your dreams. You know if you have a low LSAT score, your testimonials are amazing, but don't use it as an excuse not to postpone because there are also other things on the line such as scholarships. So keep that in mind, but definitely give Ann Levine a call if you are in trouble.

26:37 Ann Levine

Well, thanks for __26:37__ and I think Mike is good at testing to what can happen if you just wait and retake the LSAT but yeah this is the time to be aware. I am getting a lot of people be my clients and everybody -- you know I got lots of emails from lots of people and whether they should take their October LSAT or not and they tell me about their practice scores and where they are hoping in the law school. I think it is really hard like you need to be realistic with yourself. If you are heading at 153, 155 range and you are praying to get October because you don't want to wait until December that you planned to apply to the top 20 schools, that's not a recipe for success. That's not a strategy that is going to pay off and I'd much rather see someone wait, keep studying, take the December LSAT or take October and see how you do. If you have consistent scores and then if you have to take December. December is not the end of the world. February is the end of the world. I'd say that in my book. December is last __27:31__, February is don't even go there. I don't care how many law schools tell you that they would accept a February LSAT score, what they mean is they'll happily accept your application. But December is fine as long as you have all your other decks in a row and can submit applications in early January which is completely feasible. So yeah, I don't want anyone to rush into anything. If you are not ready and where your scoring right now will not put you in range for the schools you hope to attend, then don't it. And it is also a point in which either you want to go to law school or you don't. And so you have to realize you are either someone who is going to get a 168 on the test or you're someone who is going to get a 158 on that test or 148 and you have to decide depending on who you are whether you are going to be happy with those options. So you can't then -- it's stupid. It's just part of stupid, nonrealistic to put out 20 applications to schools that have never taken anyone with your LSAT score.

28:26 Ann Levine

It is not a productive way to be as you said I'd rather wait until December and that is actually my next question about the scores. It is especially for Morley and Ron, at what point should people decide that they should not take the LSAT in October. Ron, you just mentioned I think if your dream school is you are not close, so I think most people aren't close to their dream school so you might pamper that language a bit. But I mean if you are not even going to be in the running, when you draw the line and decide just to wait? I'll start with you Ron so we can adjust this a little bit.

29:02 Ron DeSantis

Okay, well I think you need to -- first off, you have to be honest with yourself about how you are scoring and part of really building up to that point, I mean you should be doing it from the beginning but as you really work more and more time to practice into your prep work, you must make sure to hold yourself strictly to those time limits and if you have begun to do that up to this point as all of you have mentioned, you have a pretty good sense from where you stand. And I think if you are within a few points of your target score, you are in pretty good shape and you can probably make up a few points between now and test time. If you are quite always below your target score, then it may be time to as you said draw the line and decide, "Hey, I'm going to have more time to prepare for this properly and take it in December than take it now".

30:09 Ann Levine

That was perfect because my next question was going to be, you know, how much does it really, really increase your score in the last three weeks before the test? You needed to answer this perfectly. So do you agree with that Ron that, you know, a few point is reasonable in the next few weeks, the 10 points isn't?

30:25 Ron DeSantis

Yeah actually. So I think people have heard it and I agree you need to be taking actual exams under time conditions and hold yourself to that, see what you're scoring and I'm getting a sense now, some people may be jumping around. I mean they've not seen that happened. I mean if you're someone who's jumping around, then the score may be a little less predictable. But some people are in a pretty close range about where they are. So my thing with that is I think you kind of alluded to and conventional wisdom would be "Well, because there're rolling admissions if you apply in October, you're probably going to be better than if you apply in December and I think all things are equal. I think that that is true because of the way that law schools do it. But you know for me, I always stress the truth especially people who come a month before or three weeks before the exam and say, "Yeah, I really need to do else that prep. I'm going to take it in October or maybe December". Those are the type of people. I would say, "Well, wait a minute. If you're just not prepared to do the exam, you're much better off going to December if you're going to know what you're doing and actually score -- have a chance to score better." I mean some people can just walk in there and do really well, but that's not with most people.

31:34 Ann Levine

Let's be honest. I mean I've never met one of those people that can just walk in and feels (crosstalk)

31:38 Ron DeSantis

Well, there -- I mean I think they're few and far between -- I mean I personally see...

31:43 Ann Levine

I mean some of these people raise their hand and think they're going to be able to do it. Not all of us can walk in and get 99% LSAT and graduate magna cum laude from Yale. You know, you got to talk to them -- the other 99% there.

31:55 Ron DeSantis

Right. Okay, exactly. I'm not saying exactly. I'm not trying to say this. I just was acknowledging that there are some people who were like that. But most people -- you know like you said, 99% of them. If they actually do the prep and learn how the test is structured and learned the way you need to think on it, they're going to have a chance to do better. So I would rather apply in December with an LSAT score that's 5 points or 6 points higher than what I would have in October. Then I would also tell students, you know, why are you even going to law school. I mean honestly that makes the big difference in terms of your target schools, in terms of everything. I mean if you want to work in like a big law firm and do all that, well then, you may not have as much margin of error about where you go to school certainly, you know, down the road where you finish in your class. If you're somebody who wants to do something like, you know, be like an assistant public defender or something like that, you know, that may not require you to get in to the top 20 or it may depending on where you are. But I would have students really think about and I know, you probably tell about them all the time about that, but that is something that sometimes overworks. Sometimes students think they need to just get in the law school period and then they'll kind of figure it out, but you know my thing would be...

33:07 Ann Levine

Because they still will have to go to a top 10 law school and do what they want to do without really doing a research or they just don't know what they want to do so they want to give themselves the best options and then -- "Oh my god, top 14, top 14". You know, they'll be labeled as stupid for the rest of their lives if they don't go that route. I think really the key for people is to evaluate what's like for them and so I really actually appreciate. Another thing you've just said, I think that -- I tell people that all the time. People will say to me "What do you mean wait until December Ann? You're always saying apply early? Yes, all other things being equal apply early. But if you're LSAT in December is going to be 5 points higher than the one you'll get in October, wait until December every time. There is no question." So I definitely echo at the sense that I'm really glad you brought it up. Let's pretend people are taking the December LSAT. They have two to three months to prepare. Mike how quickly should people, you know, win in the prep classes. Are people ready to start taking proctored exams and using your DVD?

34:06 Mike Wilkos

Well, I think they should probably take an initial diagnostic test just to see what their innate LSAT ability is. After that, they should probably go through either an LSAT course or get some LSAT books, you know, whether it's from Cambridge LSAT or LSAT Freedom. So check those out and learn the strategy and techniques. And then once they feel comfortable with that, maybe take some non-proctored test just to seeking at the right answer without the pressure and anxiety. And once you feel comfortable with that, definitely take the proctored LSAT under actual conditions because that will help your stress and anxiety and you know, see how you're going to actually perform on test day.

34:53 Ann Levine

Yeah and actually -- you know, as I was learning more about what all three of you and your companies offer. I have been thinking actually seeing all these questions that you know, LSAT Freedom is probably for good is already fairly, you know, understanding -- has a fair understanding of what kind of questions are on the test and then you go for further, you know, analysis and really fine tuning and I think Cambridge is probably very similar, but you can probably start wider. You know, start with someone who has -- you know, meet necessarily because you've got the books and everything, someone is newer to it and then go to the fine tuning aspect. Am I characterizing that correctly? What do you think Morley?

35:36 Morley Tatro

Yeah, absolutely. That's what is so great about the products that we offer is that they're not necessarily tied to one specific methodology. A lot of these especially with logical reasoning questions, a lot of the categorizations hold fairly consistent from prep company to prep company. So you know we give you the option to use whichever strategy guides that you like and then you can come either to our side or to our books to really target specific areas and tighten up your technique and put those, you know, put those strategies into use because obviously without practice, you know, knowing how to approach certain questions or games types, it just won't do anything for you. The real benefit is when you work through the problems and you review those problems and you look for ways in which they could have been done more efficiently.

36:41 Ron DeSantis

Yeah. I would just say this is Ron of LSAT Freedom. I mean for us we offer different packages so I think our pays to freedom packages is $199. It's really geared towards just fine tuning, getting access with some information are strong __36:57__ of freedom in the middle that has a substantial number of lessons and tutorials and things like that. A total freedom packages are really geared towards you know somebody who, you know, may not necessarily have had done much with the LSAT. We provide the tools for them to understand the exam from kind of a beginning. We have the prep test that you could take. We have the video explanation for those and then our tutorials. You know, we start with things like the basics of constructing an argument and we go through examples of the different ways that the test maker does that and the same thing with reading comprehension. We go through logic game skills so that people are able to do that and apply it. So I think we do -- we have to find tuning capacity, but we also have the foundation. You need those foundational skills. When you do have total freedom package, you'll have access to all our tutorials, explanations and all our study guides which will be more than enough for somebody trying to do it and if you're talking about the December exam in particular. You know, our philosophy, we really stress the most recent exams. You know, look back and use some of the ones from like the early 1990s and I think if you do those, you'll be helpful, but some of the questions have been tweaked and evolved over the years to where you're not going see questions exactly the way they were then. Whereas I can show you a prep test from a year ago and I can say, "You know what, you're going to probably get a question just like that." It's going to be a different subject matter. It's going to have different wording and everything, but the skill, the principle that is testing is going to be exactly the same. So it's kind of less instruction in terms of each prep test because we're not going back to prep test 1 and 2, but we're targeting in a way that students can kind of get their hand along it because no one is going to probably do 60 prep tests. You may do 10 or 15 and if you're going to do 10 or 15, you should focus on the 10 or 15. They're going to be the closes reflection of what you're actually going to see on the exam.

39:04 Ann Levine

Yeah, I've always suspected that, you know, because I'm probably the only person on this call who actually took the LSAT in the early 1990s. Yeah, I probably wouldn't recognize it much today, which is exactly why I'm not an LSAT tutor and I leave it all to you guys for sure. One of the things I wanted to go over is -- as we discussed this is this is a big deal for people. But on the other hand, they are making a big investment. I just want to put that in there in law school and in success. For some people, sending money on a private tutor might be necessary. If you are one of those people who is not good with standardized test who has a 2.6 GPA and you know your diagnostic is 139, you really think you're going to law school and self study LSAT. You know, some of these programs we're talking about really might not be for you and I really do hope I can provide that wake-up call because most of the comments I get on my blog are from people on that situation. I have to be the person, the mean person who tells them you know. Some people can study like this doesn't mean everyone can. So I just like to keep that in mind and I think, you know, theses products are great but the person has to know whether they are the kind of person that can benefit from me, you know, someone who needs structure. I need someone to get them to sit their back in the chair is not someone who is going to benefit. A program where they only get out of it when they take initiative to get out of it. But I want to talk right now about the people who really have no money to spend in LSAT practice, seriously no money, that they listen to my blog for free, blog talk radio for free. They're reading my podcast and my book, you know. They do not have money to spend in LSAT prep. So where should they start? Where should someone really start with LSAT prep, we're talking about someone taking the December LSAT who has no budget.

40:54 Morley Tatro

Well, if they are in a situation like that and they absolutely have no money, it's a tough position to be in, but fortunate LSAT does have a program for lower income students whereby they can apply for free waiver and that gets actually two administrations of the test and they also get a copy of the official LSAT super prep which has three previously unreleased February exams and each one of those exams, there's completely dissected by the test makers themselves so they're actually explaining to you why the correct answer are correct and they go through how you can derive the correct answers for the game and so forth. So that would be the very first place to start is to get on the LSAT website and start applying for your fee waivers as soon as possible.

41:52 Ann Levine

Fantastic suggestion, thank you. I mean you actually I just want to say that that was a great suggestion. It doesn't apply to everybody but people should know that that is an option.

42:03 Morley Tatro

Absolutely. We have some - we also have some practice logic games on our site which are simulated. They're not real games. Well, I hesitate to say, "Hey go out and practice with you" then act life they're real. If you absolutely have no money and you're having a hard time getting access to the real content. You know, like I said, get your fee waver, work out as soon as you can and get a whole of the super prep, but also you can at least work through some of these simulated games because you know, the more practice you have, the more that you're exposed to this. You know, the LSAT is a very pattern-oriented tests so if you exposed yourself to some of the patterns that they repeatedly test. You know you can improve your aptitude for it as much as possible on a limited budget.

42:55 Ann Levine

I mean you just gave me a great idea. I think we should turn this into a little pro bono effort guys and I think that after we're done with the show in about two minutes, you guys should all email me coupon offers and I will put a link to your site on my blog tomorrow when I talk about the show and people who want to take advantage maybe could give them, you know, 10 bucks of whatever you see fits or maybe like the first 10 people who'll respond by email could get something, you know. Maybe we can help the effort a little bit. I won't __43:22__ on you and make you agree on it, but if that's something that can happen, you definitely email me after the show because I think people would... And I think you know it's all for the better good and maybe we can help some people out that way and get some new people over to your site Hopefully, that can happen. I really appreciate all of you taking the time to be here. I love having you guessed on the show. I think that has been fantastic and I love letting my listeners know about new things that they might not have known, but otherwise, you know, there are still information out there about LSAT prep and not all of it is good and a lot of the gossip on forums is just as I'd say may be of paranoia inducing. So I really like to have people here. Some of the people who are running these companies and what you're offering and what works and what doesn't. So I really want to thank you for taking time and offering your advice and telling us about your programs and I hope that we will hear lots more from you in the future guys.

44:32 Morley Tatro

Thank you very much.

44:33 Mike Wilkos

Thank you very much for having us and on the discount, we actually have a discount live right now. So if you go to SimuGator.com/annlevine, you'll get a 50% discount with free shifting on our product.

44:45 Ann Levine

Love it. Thank you and I'm sure (crosstalk).

44:50 Ron DeSantis

Thanks from LSAT Freedom. Sorry, if you go to our site now, we are -- just give your name and email, we're just going to give away a free total freedom package on Monday. We're going to be doing some more promotions as well. But that's one we have going on. That's live right now. Again, you just got to sign your name and put your email and we'll put it in the __45:10__.

45:11 Ann Levine

Thank you so much. I actually think that we are out of time and __45:15__. I promise that any of these you are going to tell me about and you would like me to include on my blog post tomorrow, just send me an email. I'm happy to do it and I really appreciate your time tonight guys. Have a great night.

45:26 Ron DeSantis

Okay, thanks a lot Ann.

45:29 Morley Tatro

Thanks a lot Ann.

45:30 Ron DeSantis

Bye, bye!

45:31 Morley Tatro