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An Unforgettable Journey, Michael and Me: DAVID NORDAHL

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Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


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We are about to embark upon a weekend of love, with David Nordahl as our Captain. Of my own account, I will tell you that the spirit of LOVE that flows from David as he speaks about Michael is breathtaking. A few years ago, I heard David speak in a taped interview. All I could think about was how much I wished that I could just tell him thank you for being such a loving and kind friend to Michael.

David Nordahl was born in Albert Lea, Minnesota in 1941. He left the world of commercial art to work as Michael Jackson's private portraitist in 1988. He received a late night phone call from Jackson, who had recently seen a Nordahl painting in Steven Spielberg's office, depicting a 19th century raid on an Apache camp by US Army troops. Initially contacting Nordahl for art lessons, Jackson quickly found a kindred spirit and friend.

Upcoming Broadcasts-(8/30/13)The Weekend of Love Continues with his "Maker of Dreams." Rob Swinson; http://goo.gl/0G31Ke

(8/31/13) Private Conversations in Neverland with Michael Jackson: Wm. Van Valin II,MD 


4:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Hello lovely ones. I am so glad that we're together. I'm having a hard time talking actually right now because whenever I listened to that song, it chokes me up. I kinda wonder who would not love Michael Jackson? What kind of person would not love Michael Jackson and that's neither you or there because I know that he has nothing to do with many of us because we loved him. We loved him widely and I want you to know, as I always want you to know, I love you, I love you so much, I love you because you are here, I love you because you love Michael. I love you because you love the thoughts of love, and you know what can't nothing be wrong with that. Yeah, as better can't nothing that's it be wrong with that. So since nothing is wrong with that and we we're talking so much about love, I want you to know that I am so happy to have our guest tonight. I have wanted David Nordahl to come and speak for us forever for all of us who may have heard his original tape then you know, like I know, that it oozed with love and that is the most valuable thing. That's what it is, that's what it is, I can hear how much he loves Michael and what I wanted to do is I wanted to just get a chance to say thank you David and I got the chance to do that and you get a chance to that too. So, David is here with me right now. So, David say hi.

6:29 David Nordahl

Hi. I just wanted to say that, that song chokes me up too because it embodies Michael's whole purpose in life. He told me many times that we are all brought into this world to do something and he said "mine is to help children". He spent over third of billion dollars helping children. He built wings on hospitals orphanages. He did everything in his power to help children and that was the whole purpose of his entertainment to make that money so he could afford to do that.

7:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

See that is just, we could never find a person like that again.

7:16 David Nordahl

Never! No. No. It's just such a shame someone who means so well is so persecuted, why is that I wonder?

7:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I do wonder too, but after I -- I'm used on it, I'm used on this thing and it occurred to me that there are people who are afraid of, just like I said that we are love junkies. There are people that were afraid of it. They are so frightened of someone -- Michael is all squeaky clean, they had to find some mud.

7:52 David Nordahl

I know. I know.

7:53 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It is frightening for them; you know people think they are will be of worth, they were right. They were in the presence of angelic being and it scared them.

8:06 David Nordahl

I think so it had to be something like that because what a wonderful man and like I said his whole life he had a purpose to it and that was to help children and help people that were poor and that was his whole concern and for our planet as well.

8:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

We're gonna keep trying to carry on his work. I don't know how we're doing with that. I think we're doing a pretty good job considering and that is what our plan is.

8:46 David Nordahl

We do and we can.

8:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah to carry on but let's go to this thing. One of the reasons I played The Childhood is because as I was telling you that the part of all becoming a kindred spirit. Tells us about how you met him.

9:06 David Nordahl

Okay, I had gotten a call from Steven Spielberg 'cause I have done some paintings for him and he said expected call from Jon Voight because Jon Voight has been in his office and he just absolutely love my work and so Steven said "don't be surprised if he calls you" and so about two weeks after that somebody's personal assistant called me from Los Angeles and ask if I would send photographs of my work and I said sure. And I had an art show in Arizona. I think it was around February 13th and I had sent show brochure as well and so after I got home, it was about two or three days after I got home from a show. I was working because there was a show coming up in July. So I was already working hard for that and the phone rang about midnight I was still working. And normally when you get a call midnight it's usually an emergency or a family problem or something like that or some drunk trying to dial the phone rang and so when I pick the phone up but before he said this is Michael Jackson and I thought okay.

10:26 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes. Okay.

10:27 David Nordahl

It just going around the phone, but then right away he said, "thanks for sending the photos and the show brochure, so then I've done I made that sure that is where I have sent it too and so we talked. Oh, I don't know how long, I think about an hour Lorry felt it was about an hour and half, but we just talked on the phone and he had asked me if I gave painting lessons and I told him that I really didn't and so he asked, "would you give me painting lessons" and so I said that '"I am working on a show right now" and "I said let me think about for a few days and then I will let you know" and so two or three days after that, after I talked to him I found that he is on the Bad Tour they were opening at Kansas City and I felt well and I am gonna hear from him he is busy, but then Julie his personal assistant called me a couple of days after that and gave me a list of cities that they be playing and so I chose Denver because Denver was closed and so he said "Michael wants you to pack up all your stuff, your easel, your paintings, your paints and brushes and all that stuff created up and send that up to Denver". So I did he was not gonna take no for an answer on the painting lessons and so I sent everything up there and they send a limo to my house to drive me to the airport and I flew first class up to Denver and I had a driver when I got off of the airport. The driver that was my driver for the time I was there for that week and I went over the hotel and I got out the car and all this hotel employees lined up and so I was looking around to see who they were expecting. It was for me.

12:32 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


12:33 David Nordahl

Yeah. I have never been treated like that at a hotel. I don't know if you have?

12:38 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

No, no absolutely not.

12:41 David Nordahl

Yeah, the manager was there and he told me anything I want at anytime just call, they will get it for me, which was absolutely true. I would call down for room service for breakfast and before I hang the phone up it was there. And my food is always hot, it as always good. Like I said, normally if I stayed at hotel and ordered room service food is cold so that was great and then shortly after I got the room maid delivered the big crate up there and I started on packing it and Julie called on the room said "Michael is really anxious to see you, would it be okay if you came down now and I said sure". So Julie and Michael and Chuck, his bodyguard came down to the room and Julie and Chuck stayed in the room for a little while after they came in. I am sure that was to see if there were any flaws about our conversation or any awkward places and as soon as I saw that Michael and I were getting along just fine then they left and so it was just a great week. We went to bookstores, we went to galleries that's funny because we cannot just go to a bookstore or gallery we have to phone ahead and they have to clear the place, all that stuff and we've gone to a gallery in Downtown Denver and so when we we're driving in a van so the van pulled up in the side walk and we jumped out, run in store, but it was like this outer shops we're around this inner core and was all glass towards the inner core and ride across again was a beauty shop and so after a while I am sure that they could spot Michael. He is wearing a black cap and wearing red shirt and so these ladies from the beauty shop started flowing across this inner core and they ended up hanging on the window and they had the blue towels or whatever those things are because we are having our hair down. Somewhat of a shampoo and so at that time then we had to leave because once that starts it's like water flowing towards you so you have to get out of there and so we did that while wrapping the course going to the concert which was unbelievable. I do not know how many of your listeners have been to a Michael Jackson concert but if they have they will never forget it. And the foreman who works so hard on the stage after the show was over he would need IVs because he was so dehydrated. He would lose like six pounds during a performance and he could not afford six pounds.

16:01 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

All for Michael.

16:03 David Nordahl

Yeah. But we had a great time that week and so then he went on with his tour. I did work with Michael because I brought my drawing board too and I set up things and we practice doing certain things with pencil and colored pencil, but Michael was a perfectionist and so he would get angry at himself if what he was trying to do didn't work very well. He was so impatient with himself so we had a few lessons like that and I told him, it takes a long time to develop skills in art and you know he really didn't have the time to devote to that with his music and all the other things the he was doing, he simply did not have the time to sit down do the kind of practicing that he needed to do, but I am convinced though that if Michael had devoted himself to art, he would have been a great artist, but if he devoted himself to be a preacher, he would have been a great preacher. If he devoted himself to being a doctor he would have been a great doctor. So it did not really matter what he chose.

17:22 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

If he had the spirit, to do whatever it was that he wanted to do.

17:29 David Nordahl

Absolutely! That's right and he always told me he said "you know I could be working on a gas station, if I have not been given this talent". He said "Who knows what I would be doing" and he so appreciated his fans. He did everything for his fans. He never ever forgot who was paying the bill. He always wanted his CDs or his records or the tapes that he did he always made sure that it was always the very best that could be done and you know if you listen to any of the CDs you can understand that. They are crystal clear and so he really, really, really appreciated his fans more than I think, most of his fans even know and when he said "I love you" to his fans, boy he really meant it.

18:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh! Goodness. I hope you guys heard that that he meant it. Now as this relationship moved on, I know that you left a job with commercial art. What made you stay with Michael so long? I know there had been more than painting.

18:48 David Nordahl

Yeah, he just -- it seemed like we formed the friendship right away, and so he was not just a client he was a good friend and I loved the fact that he was a perfectionist, because if you are a perfectionist you are always trying to do the very best you can possibly do, and I enjoyed that so I loved working with him. He never ever made demands on me that I could not do.

19:22 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh that's amazing, but as I told you before we started I said you know what you have to tell us the whole thing. Tell us all about -- every single thing even down to strolling to the store you know why, because I just loved the way you speak about him. I mean the idea that we know that you went to a -- he gave you an experience you had never had before this whole thing of going to a hotel. Now I cannot really imagine what it's like to go to telling be treated like royalty, (Crosstalk), what it's like someone to give you an experience that you never had before something surprisingly nice.

20:18 David Nordahl

Oh yeah, absolutely.

20:19 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Do you want me to answer calls while we're talking?

20:22 David Nordahl

Of course!

20:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay, let see who this is but the person left.

20:29 David Nordahl

Oh, oh, they can't wait.

20:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

They couldn't wait, I guess not.

20:33 David Nordahl

They have to try again.

20:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So if you want to call back, call back I am looking in so much stuff that probably they thought, they didn't see them. Anyway, So that's what it is so I can understand what it's like to have something new, something fresh, something concerning and caring.

20:57 David Nordahl

Yeah, Michael always treated me like I was a celebrity. I could not believe that. He always treated me that way, but Michael treated everybody with respect, great respect.

21:17 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

We feel that he treated us with respect and it's just were most of the fans have never ever laid eyes on him really, but what he was like he was a family. I feel like he is part of my family. I was walking him grow up.

21:36 David Nordahl

Yeah. Me too.

21:39 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I feel like he is part of the family or something, like my little boys.

21:44 David Nordahl

Yeah. Like we -- many of us did that we watched him growing up. I remembered the first time he appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show, I was over to these peoples house and we are gonna to have dinner that was on the Sunday night and we got a call to dinner and I stood up and headed for dinning room and all of a sudden, there was this kid on the Ed Sullivan Show. It just stopped me doing my tracks because I could not believe that a little kid could sing with that kind of soul. Soul is developed overtime you know that. It takes life experience but he did not even need that I mean he was born with soul.

22:28 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That is amazing. That is just amazing.

22:32 David Nordahl


22:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I am trying to get for the people that are looking for the chat room I am having a hard time putting it up for you, oh I have got it. Yes, I have got the chat room. Yes, life is good. Life is good. Alright I have been on several different computers while we are talking to get a chat. Hello everyone welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so glad you are there mercy. So now as the friendship developed I mean you go from being business, working put work from being a client.

23:26 David Nordahl


23:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know that commercial like this I am so and so I am also a client. You know some friend that. Anyway I am a friend but I am also a client. You go from being this from one stage to the other, what happens when you go pass it into the heart.

23:49 David Nordahl

Well, I think was Michael like I said I think we became kind instant friends and so after that initial meeting we head up in Denver Michael would call me a lot and I realized also when I got home from Denver this really was not about art lessons, this was more about -- this was like a meet and greet and he want to find out kinda who I was and what my thoughts were etc. before we started doing any paintings together. And so after that initial meeting, when he was tour and everything, he used to call me at all time, a lot of times late at night because Michael always had a hard time sleeping so a lot of times he called me at midnight or even later than that and we had certain chat for a while.

24:44 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That nice.

24:47 David Nordahl

Yeah and then he told me that during that time that he had a lot of projects so he wanted me to work on and if I was willing to do and I said "sure".

24:56 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Tell me about this picture, it seems like the pictures it started out being just a normal size picture but ended that being something like 24 x 38 that the Children of the World picture.

25:13 David Nordahl

Yeah, that was that Michael called Field of Dreams. That started out as like you said it was a simple sketch and the original painting was going to be 9 feet x 12 feet and so then overtime, it kept growing and the next one was 9 feet x 20 feet and then 12 feet x 38 feet. And I felt bad because I did that sketch and I did over 5,000 drawings of different kids, different nationalities, different religions etc. to finally come up with the final painting, but if you can imagine the size of that and the number of figures, I would have had the paint over 300 figures in there. So there was not a project that I could retake on by myself. So I tried to get some commitments from some other artist that I knew that could help me at least get the painting wrapped in, but I could not get commitment because they have their own careers and things and so they could not take the time so the large painting never got done.

26:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, would never get done.

26:26 David Nordahl

Never get done. It is just too big a task, I just can, would have taken years to complete that.

26:33 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

To finish it, have been after what (crosstalk). Yeah, that would have, that is too much, but it is now okay so you just said that he spent like a third of a billions dollars helping kids. Do you think that it mattered or, I mean considering the way things go on in the world. We know about the little boys will deliver but for the most part, what defines do you think it made. I would have told you what I think in a minute, you could please tell me.

27:13 David Nordahl

Well I think his acts in the people that he impacted doing the things that he did I think he changed a lot of people's minds. I think anybody who worked with Michael on any of those projects or anything else I am sure understood Michael's spirit and hopefully they would continue on doing the kind of things that Michael would like them to do.

27:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I would hope so I think they will, I think that any of the people that are listening to the show, there are few countries listening to this show and all of them have been affected by Michael before, what he said he did have the internet, now he could talk to all of his fans but it was never like this, but before got to be like this, he was able to touch so many hearts all over the world.

28:19 David Nordahl

That is right.

28:20 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And that is the different side that he made.

28:22 David Nordahl

Oh yeah.

28:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I think it mattered up because even the kids say, he could not help. He touched the heart of others who would like to do what they saw him doing. (crosstalk)

28:44 David Nordahl

Yeah, I wanna tell you about the first night that I went to the concert and we had this hair-raising ride in three vans through Downtown, Denver and out to the stadium and when we got there, there was an area that was fenced off backstage had this metal pipes and then this dark blue curtains that hang on there and then there was a big sign there that said "absolutely no admittance", and then there was line of kids in wheelchair and respirators and all that kind of stuff. These were Make-A-Wish Foundation of kids that Michael went straight in there and he spent all that time before going on stage and there was those terminally ill children and that first night I thought something had gone back there and I ask Chuck I said that the boy past away and Chuck just nod at and so I think that little boy that was in there I think passed away and Michael went from there saying a prayer with all the people that were performing and not onstage. After the concert, I asked "Michael, how can you do that? How can you see these poor pitiful children and then go from there to performing?" and he said "How can I not?" He said "If I can extend the child's life for an hour or a day or a week or a month", he said "why wouldn't I do that?" It was a very simple answer. He had so much compassion for ill children and terminally ill children. That whole ranch was set up for that. All the rides were especially modified to make sure that special needs children's arms did not flop out or their hair didn't get caught in these things. He just had so much compassion and he would ... If a mother called and had a critically ill child or something, Michael would drop everything and go there and he would leave the child with something like a glove or something else. He would tell the child "I'm gonna be back here in two weeks", and I think it was just amazing how he actually extended some children's life just waiting for him to return. He told me, he said "I know I'm just a person". He said but Michael Jackson the entertainer means a lot to these children.

31:52 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I know, I read somewhere. I think it's the Rabbi Shmuley. If he thought he was saving that he has a healing power and Michael told him "Yes".

32:08 David Nordahl

Oh, I think he did, yeah. Yeah, he had to, just from the conversation we had. I think that's true. He did extend children's lives and he did everything he could in his power to do that. You look at some of these kids and all the surgeries he paid for and all the hospital bills and even helping the parents. Michael never talked about those things. You had to hear it from someone else because ... See Michael believed that if you did an act of kindness and then you talked about it or bragged about it or whatever, that it took all of the meaning away that was in your heart when you did it. So he was always very mute about things like that, the kindness that he did.

33:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Where was the ...Where were the paparazzi then?

33:12 David Nordahl


33:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Where were these (crosstalk) then when he was doing these things?

33:16 David Nordahl

Exactly. There you go. There you go.

33:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And you say if he got a call from ... A call and somebody was really sick or dying or something then he would show.

33:31 David Nordahl

Yeah. Of course he would. He never wanted to turn any child down.

33:54 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

can't imagine Michael wanting to turn anyone down.

34:00 David Nordahl


34:02 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Especially when you say that the kids, the kids that was his purpose and I really kind of wonder ... I wonder why when I listen to his song when he says, the kids have had their childhood stolen from them. Do you think that Michael might have been trying to renew their childhood?

34:27 David Nordahl

Well, yeah. I mean, Michael's own childhood was difficult because at a very young age, he was not able to go out and just hang out in the street and meet some other kid and play or shoot some hoops or something like that. He couldn't do that. He was kind of a prison of his own fame and so he knows what it feels like to be an outcast or to be different or not to have the kind of joy that kids are supposed to have like ... Michael was happiest when he was looking at kids that were having a great time. I remember when I was at the ranch and they were putting in the midway, the rides and stuff. That Halloween, Michael and I and Norma went driving in Michael's Chevy Blazer and we drove into Los Olivos, that little town, just so we could see the kids that were trick-or-treating. It's a really small town so all the kids are out. They're all running around, getting candy and everything, and they're having the time of their life, and they're all dressed up in costume. That just delighted Michael to see children having such a good time because he said that childhood was supposed to be fun.

35:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes. I think that perhaps he did not get a chance to have that fun. I think that he was called to do ... I don't think Michael really ... This is going to sound strange but he probably never was a child in the first place. I think perhaps he was called to experience what it was like to be a child.

36:25 David Nordahl

Oh, absolutely but you are right. He never was a child. I know it was very difficult for him those years but you think of the music that he put out and what he did. I mean, he was a student of music when he was a little kid. He would go to concerts and things where they were performing and then he would sit and watch the response of the audience to the performers that were on stage, to see the things that they responded to, and that helped him build an act. His act did not just happen by accident. His act was well-conceived and well thought out. He knew what he was doing.

37:15 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, absolutely. I could see that. I could see that he ... What it was that we liked, he continued it.

37:24 David Nordahl

Yeah, absolutely and he wasn't all soul. I don't think you ever met Michael but if you're standing in front of him and you look into his eyes, you can see for a million miles. His eyes were eyes were absolutely unbelievable.

37:45 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

What does that mean?

37:48 David Nordahl

It means he is an old soul. He has been around before think ... He's evolved.

37:54 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, okay. Alright, and what that is ... This is to say that I have been doing these sermons about him. I wanted to do them every morning for his birthday weekend. I didn't wake up this morning so that was terrible but anyway that's the way. That's pretty much what the whole thing boiled down to is that he was somebody that was out there teaching people long before they knew they were being taught.

38:26 David Nordahl

Oh, yeah.

38:28 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So let's see. I've watching this thing. They have been showing all the short films that he did on Bad. I'm saying but even if you look at Bad, he's there teaching moral.

38:40 David Nordahl

Yes, of course. If you want to find out -

38:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And most people would ? oh, go ahead I'm sorry.

38:46 David Nordahl

Oh, no. I was gonna says that if you want to find out who Michael was, just listen to his music.

38:53 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. That is why I like doing ... I was enjoying doing these sermons because he has so much music. He has got music that has like ... how do you make it through something.

39:13 David Nordahl

Of course. (Crosstalk)

39:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know, it's said that's not the way music is today. Today, the music calls your mama "b" and calls their girlfriend probably something even worse.

39:29 David Nordahl


39:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And what is insane is that the girls love it and they're like going "Oh, yes, I really love this person" and I think why? I wanna know why?

39:46 David Nordahl

That's right.

39:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But Michael, he had something that made us feel human, made us feel whole.

39:53 David Nordahl

Well, there are a few performers out there that had the kind of vision and purpose that Michael had. They just don't really exist. He was out there all by himself and he was teaching and he was trying to tell us. Take care of the kids. This is our future.

40:20 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right and the whole idea that you know like I never really could get why was ... He had to have somebody say he was, what ever this was that ... I think it's Steven Spielberg who did the movie for Bad, right?

40:37 David Nordahl

Yeah, I think so. No, maybe - (Crosstalk)

40:39 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I think so. Anyway, when they leave school, somebody has to tell them he's proud of him.

40:45 David Nordahl


40:46 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

They have like something in this ... I've just watched this because BET has been playing it for his birthday.

40:52 David Nordahl

Oh. Sure. I forgot to even check that channel. I should have done that.

40:55 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. BET had been playing all of his videos and talking about what they meant and all of that for his birthday, but nobody talked about this thing about, in this movie why it's so important to tell somebody that you're proud of them and he meets a person on the L train? According to Chicago, it's an L train. I don't know but he's in New York or something but anyway, he meets this person on the L train and the guy says "How many people were proud of you?" Only one person told him, it was an insult and so Michael says "three"" and the guys says "Well, four people told me they were proud" and I wondered why ... I kind of thought at that moment, why don't we ever tell people that we're proud of them, that we (crosstalk) them, that we appreciate the things that their doing and that's what happened in that short film. Someone told him that they were proud of him. He left there feeling and then he went home and the true story is I understand that that boy was killed.

42:16 David Nordahl


42:17 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, for the movie for Bad.

42:20 David Nordahl

Yeah. Oh, for Bad. Yeah.

42:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, but the idea is that Michael found ways to bring a message to you, you see? The message that I got was it's important for people to know that you think well of them. That's all. You're proud of them, like that.

42:45 David Nordahl

Yeah, and Michael probably did not get a lot of that because there is so much going out from him, that except for some close friends, that I think not much actually came back to him, you know what I mean? Because he gave and gave and gave and gave all the time so people are just used to it, I think.

43:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, yes. I wonder if he ... I thought about that song he sang with this "How Many People Are Proud Of You" and he had a song that he sang called To Make My Father Proud.

43:23 David Nordahl


43:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And To Make My Mother Smile. So much of his music sounds like it's his life.

43:32 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

43:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But did Michael ... Michael kept saying I wanna be a child. Let me give you an example that I've used for one of these sermons I did and I asked everybody if they remember this movie called The Preacher and His Wife. It really was called The Bishop or something but it was redone with Whitney Houston and it was called The Preacher and His Wife. There is an angel there and the angel really and truly wants to be a man. He wants to do what the man is doing but he cannot. He is an angel. That is not ... It is not his calling to do that and Michael. There's Michael who wants to be a child. What you're saying you look in his eyes and you can see a millions miles.

44:24 David Nordahl


44:25 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It is never his calling to be a child but perhaps to experience what a child went through and for the Christians out there, that's all that Jesus Christ was here. He was supposed to be experiencing what man went through. Okay.

44:38 David Nordahl

That's right. Yup.

44:40 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So like that, so I kind of wonder, did he ever come to grips was who he was on the inside. Did he ... What does he think about himself as a spiritual being.

44:56 David Nordahl

I think basically that Michael had low opinion of himself. I don't mean in everything. He was successful in everything so he understood all of that, but I think ... Michael is always trying to do more. I don't think he ever achieved what he expected of himself. Everything he did, he just tired so hard to do it better, do it more, and so I don't really think that he had a great concept of himself. I don't think so, I just don't. What do you think?

45:50 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I think you're right, but I think it goes back to what we were saying about being proud. I think I might have helped if he had been able to call Joseph, daddy. It might have helped.

46:03 David Nordahl

Oh yes, absolutely. Oh yeah.

46:04 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

If he able to have a father that would look at him and say "You know what, Michael? You are really good. I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of my son." He never got that.

46:19 David Nordahl

No, he sure did not. He sure did not, but he was a ... Joe, the tough customer. He always wanted more.

46:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, he did not get a chance to stay around the people who originally saw him. We saw him before he was Michael Jackson before he ever saw the it's all of him show, we saw him just in the neighborhood, you know what I mean?

46:50 David Nordahl


46:52 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So we were proud of him. We were so proud of him. I mean I can't begin to tell you. We were proud of him like this is a time when he was an urgent factor and everybody's like that. We were proud of him the same way everybody was proud of, not Cassius Clay, but Muhammad Ali.

47:21 David Nordahl

Ali, yeah.

47:22 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know of that kind of thing? It was that kind of, some kind of personal pride. (Crosstalk) I don't even. I don't think I can any more but...

47:33 David Nordahl

I understand what you're saying.

47:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I remember the way it was and he never got a chance to get back to us. Back to ... He can never could have come back into that into that space in time where people could say "We love you and we are so proud of you."

47:57 David Nordahl

That's right.

47:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

What about the things that ... What about if he didn't think well of himself, what happened when his skin began to change?

48:10 David Nordahl

It had already begun when I met him. Of course, when he is not on stage or not in public, he was not wearing any makeup and I noticed that on his right neck and up into his cheek on the right side and also the back of his hand. I did not see his arm because he had a long sleeve shirt on, but that was 1988 and that's ... Vitiligo is usually carried in the genes. Usually other people in the family. Michael told me once that there was someone else in the family that had vitiligo. Michael just dealt with it. Michael didn't whine. I never ever heard Michael complaining about anything. He just dealt with whatever they threw at him. He's very (crosstalk) that way.

49:13 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, he said he had rhinoceros skin.

49:18 David Nordahl

Well and you know people so well. He's all white all over. Well, when the vitiligo had taken over to a certain degree, he could not use darker make up to hide that anymore because you know its vitiligo. It's not just white like Caucasian skin. It's white like the refrigerator.

49:40 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


49:40 David Nordahl

So he had to keep getting lighter and lighter and lighter make up to be able to cover the dark spots that -

49:49 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

(Crosstalk) He started putting just a little bit darker makeup on it, right?

49:54 David Nordahl


49:55 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I hope so.

49:57 David Nordahl

Yeah. He had to do that and then it had to get lighter because there is more and more white skin that had to be covered.

50:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, he really, really, really had a rough case of it and I know that many of us have seen people with vitiligo, but I've never known what the name was before.

50:22 David Nordahl

Yeah. It's not that uncommon. I have seen people before with vitiligo. In fact, a friend of mine's son has vitiligo. There are quite a few cases of it around, but for people to be so cruel to accuse him of trying to be white which he has never ever tried to do. He was proud of his heritage. He would never have done that but accuse him even after people knew that he had vitiligo, you know? I've never been able to understand that and then...

50:55 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I know what happened. I know what happened. Michael was so extraordinary that people did not think he was capable of being sick. They did not think anything could ... People remained and nobody dreamed that he would die. There are people that are still saying that he is someplace hiding because Michael was so high. I don't know if he's high spiritually. He is high in the minds of us all. That is why even when they had these people, even they were making those accusations against him, there were people who really were guilty and they never ever ... They never said anything about all those priest and different actors and so on. They never dealt with them because it was sort of like "Well, we know what they are". They're not an angel anyway, but Michael is like an angel.

52:05 David Nordahl

Yes he was. Yes he was.

52:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So that's what I'm saying. He was on this high plane so nobody could ever believe that anything could happen to him.

52:15 David Nordahl

Yeah, I guess you might be right about that. You might be right about that.

52:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It's like if it happens it's because Michael has ordered it to happen, you know?

52:29 David Nordahl

Yeah, I guess we have the same view. It never crossed my mind that I would outlive Michael. I mean goodness gracious sakes.

52:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. That's what I'm saying. Nobody would dream that and so I think. You know what? I kind of wonder like it seem to me that he never took time for himself. What do you think about that?

52:55 David Nordahl

They've never what?

52:56 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

He never took time for himself. I mean, even with him and the kids, giving, going out and he's spending his money to give the kids candy.

53:06 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. No, you're right. He didn't take time for himself. He never did. He would go places, but it was never ... I don't know. It was always for Soul in Richmond I think. It was never just kicking back. You know what I mean? Like most people go in a vacation and they go down by the ocean or something and roll up their chair and kick back on it get some rays and that kind of stuff. Michael is not like that. Michael was a 100% productive human being. That is why he had trouble sleeping was because he could never shut his mind off. He would tell me. He said "I wish I could claim that I wrote this music." He said but the fact is he said "I hear it in my head" and he said "I just perform it." Well, I know it's not that simple but there is just ... There are all that these things running through his head. Not just music, but other things too.

54:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


54:12 David Nordahl

That's why in 1993 ... 1993 when he was first accused was ... It kind of ... Michael's mind and his music and what he did was like a river and in 1993 somebody built a dam and stopped up that river. Michael was not one to stop doing anything. He was always pushing forward and doing things and writing music and appearing in concerts and all that stuff and all of a sudden, the brakes were put on. Then he got rolling again but then again in 2003 BAM! There's another dam again and, you know, that one he never really recovered from, I mean, he told me, he said "For all of the things I've done for kids" and he said "to be accused--like they are accusing me, how can they do that to me?" He was just so hurt that people would believe that he would harm a child. Michael would never do that, he would kill himself first, he would, he even said that.

55:31 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I looked at Michael and there is no way, there is absolutely no way. There is no way that he would hurt--do anything like that and I think that people had a problem. People have a problem with who he was and why he was not married and, you know, so on and so on and somehow, because I think that two people and I think they were both disgusting, Oprah and there is Martin Bashir person, you know, if we send those with a question dealing with some of his very personal life, you know, and I just thought to myself how awful. I like this thing, I like MSNBC because I am also a political junkie.

56:32 David Nordahl

Oh sure.

56:33 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And I tell you what, this whole little thing of this guy his name Martin Bashir, the one who made that movie Living With Michael. That was supposedly...(Crosstalk)

56:52 David Nordahl

Yeah, he just, you know, he edited everything around to make it fit his view because he knew that he would get great coverage by doing that. He--Michael only brought him to the ranch because Princess Diana had--he had written something about Princess Diana, he was really happy with what he did and that was the only reason Michael did that. Michael is always against doing things like that, he made a huge mistake

57:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And because he is the person that caused the greatest problem in his life. I think Michael was doing fine and we come with something like that and so, you know, these days. Okay, yesterday, people celebrated the 50th anniversary. The "I Have A Dream" speech and...

57:45 David Nordahl

That's right.

57:46 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And I thought I said, you know, they were doing this on this channel MSNBC, but they did not allow Martin Bashir to do his show. Rightly so, because Michael was above the most humane person I have ever--more humane than Martin Luther King, seriously.

58:10 David Nordahl

I agree. I agree.

58:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Michael was more than just a--Michael was a civil rights of everybody. Every single person, you know, so I mean, so as Martin Luther King but Michael was global.

58:29 David Nordahl

Yeah, that is right.

58:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

From the very beginning. He was global and, so I think that Michael, you know if he won't open up his mouth and said the main Martin Luther King after doing what--Michael I might have hopped on the plane and fly to Atlanta and show my true colors. I will not be very happy about that man destroyed Michael's life and I just--I'll probably--I know you're supposed to forgive people and I am not angry anymore, but I will never forget what he did. I can never ever listen to him.

59:12 David Nordahl

I can't either. I cannot have anything to do with him, its just awful what you did to poor Michael. Michael is being so open.

59:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, Michael tried. Michael--he wanted somebody to help him and--it's almost like these things, somebody sent me something in the--somebody put something on there, it's from the--I'll show whatever it is. It's from The Lion King. It's the part where the __59:47__ Lion King is hanging on a ledge and he is asking his brother to help pull him up, but instead of the brother pulling him up, he stomps on his hands and makes him fall down and die.

1:00:02 David Nordahl


1:00:03 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It just seemed so much that is the best effect...

1:00:14 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. Especially, but it wasn't just him, even mainstream media that were so cruel to Michael. Normally it's just the rags that probably show untrue things, but all of the major networks were repeating stories that were never...

1:00:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

From tabloids.

1:00:38 David Nordahl

Yeah and that is not what they are supposed to do. If they have a story, they are supposed to check it all out but they didn't. They just repeated everything that was being said and that the change...

1:00:49 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

First time I ever saw that, I was telling you I was at the group called Uncover Michael Jackson's name. Well I remember when the very first time we were on the news or something like that or either something was written about us but whatever it was, it looked like it was cut and pasted into every other place and nobody ever wrote anything, nobody ever investigate it, nobody ever tried to find out anything or to move on anything. They just cut and paste. People didn't even change the words that had been misspelled.

1:01:29 David Nordahl

That's right.

1:01:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And that is what I think about Michael, they just, you know, they didn't even cared if, gee, if it sell.

1:01:35 David Nordahl


1:01:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know. (Crosstalk) if it bleeds, it leads or something like that.

1:01:44 David Nordahl

Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right and the media has...

1:01:50 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Dealing with that--how did he cope with dealing with the tabloids, you know?

1:01:58 David Nordahl

Well, you know earlier one, because I forget what it was that was written about him. It wasn't true and I know it wasn't true. It was on the tabloids and so I asked Michael, I said "why don't you do something about those, you know, these people should not be allowed to print things that are not true and have no base at all" and he said "well" he said "when you're on the top of your game, you know, if you are an entertainer or singer or whatever that if you try to respond, it just gets worse", so he just choose to keep his mouth shut and I told him, so why don't you go on some talk shows or something, your have chance for people to get to know who you are. He said "oh no I could never do that". I said "why not?". He said "well, I don't really have an interesting life". He said "I work all the time". He did not think he is interesting enough to go on a talk show.

1:03:02 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh my God.

1:03:02 David Nordahl

I know.

1:03:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

My oh my.

1:03:06 David Nordahl


1:03:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

This is all I do its work. (Crosstalk) yeah and that's what the problem was, he says nobody knows me. That's why people get...

1:03:24 David Nordahl

I know. Yeah. It was all trajectory in all of you. He was an enigmatic figure. Then people did not know what to make of them and, so if people don't know what to make of you, then they make up stories.

1:03:40 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. Because they want to have something and they don't have anything to say. I mean, it won't sell if you say "Michael Jackson was at the hospital and he helped a little boy".

1:03:56 David Nordahl

No. They are not interested in that.

1:03:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

They want to hear that Michael Jackson went to the hospital and took the little boy and stuffed him under his jacket. (Crosstalk) something stupid like that.

1:04:08 David Nordahl

No exactly yeah. You know, after both of those times when he was accused, I got a call from all the rags and they had cash money. They were running around with the rags from England who are over here with suitcases full of money.

1:04:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

To pay you?

1:04:30 David Nordahl

Yeah. To pay anybody that would talk about Michael, but it had to be negative stuff. I told him I said "I don't know anything bad about Michael, I said I can't help you". I know that one time they wanted to know who all those children were in the--to fill the dreams. I say "hey they are all made up. I made them up", you know, I did not know photos to work from. I just made all that's stuff up and so they were disappointed at that but I got many calls, you know, that wanted me to talk about Michael something they could dig up, you know, something new that was bad about Michael but I didn't know anything. So, what can I say?

1:05:18 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right, because there is nothing bad to say about it that and obviously that's the reason they needed to bring a case of money.

1:05:29 David Nordahl

Yeah. Oh absolutely surely.

1:05:31 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Because all of money. If don't have something bad to say. You might think of something bad to say.

1:05:36 David Nordahl

Of course and people did. People did and they took the money and one lady that worked at the ranch. She took 35,000 and she apologized afterwards and she was crying and all that stuff because Michael had actually helped her. She was a single mother will a daughter and he bought a TV for her and given her some money at one point, you know, and then turned around and bite someone in the back like that. It's just...

1:06:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:06:08 David Nordahl

Human beings are no damn good.

1:06:11 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. I mean, just like that.

1:06:14 David Nordahl

Just for money.

1:06:16 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Just for money. For the love of money. So, now we have, you know, we've got a lot of kids that--is not as though Michael they just heard Michael, you know, like right now, this whole thing about Michael being on drugs and all of that and I don't see it. I don't see and somebody told me that I was being--I was in denial and I am telling people I have been the therapist in three different hospitals with addictions of all kinds and still not even trying to hear it. I'm not over here being in denial. I am just saying that there are people that take medicines and the medicine you can become dependent on the medicines. It's as simple as that.

1:07:07 David Nordahl

I remember back in--remember when Michael got burned. Remember that Pepsi ad? He got his head burnt and during the time that after he got burned, they inserted a balloon under his scalp and I even felt a bit and it was really big because they have to pull, you know, to expand the skin so they can cover that spot that got burned out.

1:07:38 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:07:40 David Nordahl

During that time with Michael was at a lot of pain and that was when he started taking pain pills for the pain because the pain was excruciating and then I remember he got hooked on those which does not take very long to do but he didn't know anything about that. He did know anything about drugs. He have never taken a drug. He has never even taken an aspirin, so but then he got clean. He got away from that and, you know, over the years I spend a lot of time with him, all different times of the day, early in the morning, all day long, late into the night, sometimes in the middle of the night when Michael couldn't sleep. I never ever saw him that would be under the influence of any kind of drug or painkiller or anything like that and I only saw him drink wine two times, that was once when I was in New York with Ian and Lisa Marie and the other time when I was out to California down at La Jolla and that was just a short glass of wine, but there are these people out there, they are just thinking that he has taken all of these drugs and he is all drugged out, everything, I never saw it, I'm sorry.

1:09:01 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I can understand. I can understand him being in pain with every single that went on with him and I can understand his pain and I can understand him having--becoming dependent. There are drugs that you will become dependent on but you are not--let me say, you are not getting high. You are dependent if you don't take it then the problem will return, that's all. But I think Michael have something inserted in his body that would make sure that his body did not respond to any opiate. So he get the part that kill the pain but the other part they would make you feel like you were high or something but part that the real addict one, he had to pull totally out. So, he had a different kind of thing going on, so that's why I don't understand why people are saying "Oh gee, you're an addict because of what he did". It's what the addict doesn't want to do. It's like you want to get high, right?

1:10:11 David Nordahl

Right, sure of course.

1:10:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So you can't do that if you take the opiate out.

1:10:18 David Nordahl

And I can understand him using the propofol one. He doesn't want to use getting ready for This Is It concert there is so much pressure on him because you know it started out being 10 performances and overtime, it grew to 50. I mean good Lord that an unbelievable on a concert and for him who has trouble sleeping and with all that pressure that makes it even harder for him to sleep, he needed to do something. Either to back out of the show or do something, so he gets some sleep.

1:10:56 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. Well I never really quite understood. You know, I think that people like, you know, not that he even wanted to talk about him but I think that people like Murray, they start out with this extreme admiration, but I think admiration going crazy is actually what jealousy is.

1:11:22 David Nordahl


1:11:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I think that's what happened to him, you know, right now, we are trying to work to make sure that there is something we can do for either for him, not to come out so early, number one or number two for him not to come out and sell a lie, another, you know, I did already call on. We've call no--I forgot what's the name of the call is. I don't know what it was but anyway, but it basically it boiled down as if you don't have any facts, you cannot put this up and you call it up and make it look like it's factual, like its something that's history. It was called no documentary and there were never any documents to any of this. Everything that is, its all hearsay and this, a beautiful man and, you know, because or else we would not be here, you know?

1:12:27 David Nordahl


1:12:28 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That's why were here. So we know that he is not there with the drug. What we want to know though is we want to know about the Michael that we miss. The other things we're talking about that isn't even that the Michael that someone else built. You know what I'm...

1:12:56 David Nordahl

I totally agree. I don't recognize him through the media at all.

1:13:01 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That is not even, you know, that's not even--that's not at all that has nothing to do. This is a person to me that was incredibly spiritual.

1:13:13 David Nordahl

Oh yeah.

1:13:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I don't see you going in there and reading a book of scripture and then popping some __1:13:23__ tablets at the same time.

1:13:28 David Nordahl


1:13:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I don't see it. I don't think that Michael would do that.

1:13:32 David Nordahl

No. He wouldn't. No he sure would not.

1:13:38 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But, you know, what about, you said the press was really, really on him. What they have to do regarding, you know, the thing with the _1:13:53_ are they the people that started the lie about him trying to be white?

1:14:01 David Nordahl

You know, I don't know where that started from. I have a feeling it started over in England, I think, with some of the rags but then it was just repeated.

1:14:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

With England, someone told me about--told me to quit my--she says "quit your bellyaching or something" because I did not think that and I still do not think that Justin Bieber should have taken Michael's record without permission and its selling like wow in the UK.

1:14:44 David Nordahl

Oh was that right?

1:14:46 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. He had a record called Slave to the Rhythm that was never produced. I mean it was never released, whatever and so Justin Bieber took it and Justin Bieber is likes it's a duet or something.

1:15:04 David Nordahl

I didn't know that.

1:15:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So, I mean, so for Michael, he is not getting a chance even now, that's why its so important that we talk about Michael who he was. That's why this conversation is so important. We want to make it plain because we got people and caught on as we speak and everything they can to tear him down and that's why I'm telling you David, tell us all about it. We need to know. We need to have a testimony that talks about Michael really was and yet is actually in the mind of all us.

1:15:46 David Nordahl

That's right. But he was just a great guy, you know, off stage he was just a regular guy and all of the sudden people call him Wacko Jacko and all that kind of stuff but, I don't know it just seemed to me that he was more normal than 99% of the people out there.

1:16:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right I don't see, I never could see what was so Wacko. I never did get that.

1:16:11 David Nordahl

I didn't either, you know, yeah. He will be outside and he was in daytime and he would have a hat on and sometimes he would have a mask over his face or an umbrella or something and people thought that was weird, but the vitiligo that he had he could not allow the sun to touch his skin, not even touch it. Most of the time, you know, when I was with Michael. We'd hangout outside at night and he love to do that because he love the outdoors, but he really had a difficult time for him to be outside in the day time when the sun was shining.

1:16:51 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That had to be really awful for him.

1:16:53 David Nordahl

He put mask on his kids for the obvious reason that after Michael had children, he worried that the kids would be harmed somehow or kidnapped or something and so, he did not want their faces exposed. Therefore the kids could go somewhere with someone else and they wouldn't have to wear mask because nobody knew what they look like. Michael and the kids came here to Santa Fe and we went to a movie which is weird. It was on Memorial Day weekend and we went to an opening of The Day After Tomorrow. It was a film by a director that Michael knew and so he wanted to see the film. It was just opening and the theater was in the mall on the north side of town and memorial day weekend, the parking lot was absolutely jammed there wasn't even a parking place in there and were going to go to a movie, you know, I have gone to movies before and Michael was always to a screening room or something where its just us. I could not believe were trying to go to a movie and so I took the kids and went inside and we got tickets and the three kids, of course they did not have to wear mask because, you know nobody knew they belong to Michael and so we went in and got our popcorn stuff, got sat down in a theater and then when the film started and the theater got dark and Michael came in the backdoor, walked up the aisle and sat down with us and he is wearing, and I call them silk pajamas, but there, you know, the Chinese things that look like pajamas, those silks and they're beautiful, but that is what he is wearing and a baseball cap.

1:18:49 David Nordahl

And we sat to the whole movie and I am thinking before this movie ends, we better get up and get moving and but we kept sitting there and sitting there and sitting there and the movie came to an end and the lights came up and the theater was jammed, it was absolutely packed and so everybody got up and shuffled out and they all got passed us, we got up and went out the backdoor. I was so shocked that nobody realized who it was, but they didn't. Nobody said a word. But you can see that when the kids were with me there wasn't a problem because they did not know what the kids look like, so the kids could do whatever they wanted.

1:19:51 David Nordahl

I'm losing you. I better switch to a different phone and hang on. I think my battery is going. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Hello? Can you hear me? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello? I lost you. Well I tried to but then the phone came in.

1:20:50 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh my.

1:20:52 David Nordahl


1:20:53 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Hello David, I'm right here and you can hear me now?

1:20:58 David Nordahl

My phone went dead or what but I lost you.

1:21:01 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Alright but were back together?

1:21:05 David Nordahl


1:21:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You are able to hear me now?

1:21:09 David Nordahl

Yeah. I can hear you just fine. Can you hear me?

1:21:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh yes. Absolutely. Okay that was kind of (crosstalk) I want the people, you know, not to just sit there and then wonder why things didn't go, this was a good time for you to call in and if there are things that you want to ask David, you can do it. Yes. You can do it. We'll just wait out here and we are chatting about different things like, the press and some of the things that we know about, what we really do want to do is we want to get down to who Michael was from within. We--I really want to talk about Michael's heart and his spirit and what made him. We said that, you know, he didn't think very much of himself and I kind of wonder how he did not think much--think well of yourself and then do so much for others.

1:22:14 David Nordahl

I know, I think it's just because. He just demanded so much of himself in a way with music and his public service that I don't think he ever reached the level that he wanted to be at, that's all. No doubt Michael was a good person. He was an accomplished entertainer, a great benefactor, so I don't know but I just had--always had that feeling that Michael did not come up to his own standards that he did not meet what he thought he should be.

1:22:53 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, he was a perfectionist. You never saw him _1:22:56_

1:22:57 David Nordahl

It is perfectionism. It's wanting to make sure that everything is always the best that you can possibly make it.

1:23:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well what happened with him on Dave Dave or Dave's last name, really wasn't Dave. You know, do you know the real father who set him on fire?

1:23:21 David Nordahl

Oh god. Oh man. That was horrible. God Michael paid for over 50 surgeries for that little guy.

1:23:32 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And so what, you know, how did things work out for him?

1:23:38 David Nordahl

I don't know. I never heard about that afterwards, you know, I don't know what happened to him, but I know Michael...

1:23:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But I know that I saw him, I saw him well before _1:23:53_ went off the air, Larry King live. I saw him. That's the last time I saw him.

1:23:58 David Nordahl

What was that right?

1:23:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And I think Michael had already made his transition.

1:24:05 David Nordahl

Yeah. Yeah.

1:24:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So, I think he said that Michael promised to take care of him for the rest of his life.

1:24:15 David Nordahl

Yeah. I'm sure he did. I'm sure Michael--well that's something Michael would do. That's something Michael would do.

1:24:26 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Poor guy, to have your father just decide to burn you up.

1:24:31 David Nordahl

How can I get any worse than that. I mean, that's just--that's something you can't even think about. It's just awful. I know Michael, he's just crushed. He did everything for that little guy.

1:24:51 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well I'm glad he helped him. I'm glad he helped him.

1:24:56 David Nordahl

Well, yeah. Anybody that Michael heard about like that he would rush in and do everything he could, you know, he paid for so many surgeries, when I was with him and Lisa Marie in New York, there was that boy, I don't remember if it's a Bosnia or Yugoslavia or where he is from but he needed a heart transplant or heart surgery, I think, I think it was heart surgery and so Michael and Lisa Marie offered to pay for the surgery which was supposed to be $125,000 but when they found out it was Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie that were paying for it, the price went up to $250,000.

1:25:43 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh lord, have mercy.

1:25:45 David Nordahl

Isn't it (crosstalk)

1:25:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:25:48 David Nordahl

Yeah. They doubled it.

1:25:50 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, I'm just glad you didn't say a million.

1:25:53 David Nordahl

Yeah. God. They could have, I mean, those kinds of things has really disappointed Michael, you know, that he is trying to do something good and then people try to take advantage of it.

1:26:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And now, there is no one to take advantage of all these people, these tabloid writers where are they? I haven't heard any and these people, this Dimond, Diane Dimond person, she--there is no information on her. There really is no information. You can go on, you can find her per--something like a resume about her but you--it's not like Michael whose life was open. We know about him from being 5 years old.

1:26:43 David Nordahl


1:26:44 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But half of her life was missing and if you go and do a search on her which I did, I did it because I wanted to know why anybody would talk like that about Michael.

1:26:56 David Nordahl

I know.

1:26:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I just really wanted to understand what kind of woman this was that would do something like that to a sweet guy like Michael. (Crosstalk)

1:27:06 David Nordahl

Even asked of the trial. Even after he is found innocent.

1:27:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes. That point you really want to tell and these people, back to those MSNBC thing, they have now decided that she is an expert on child molesters, now how is a person become an expert on child molestation? How does that happen?

1:27:39 David Nordahl

Self-declared, I think.

1:27:41 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well they put her up there they said that, you know, they hire her. Whoever that person was, somebody that was over a university but anyway, they immediately hired her because they felt she knew so much about it, so that when the live when out that were damaging to Michael, they were also empowering to other people. So it took some that were good and lifted up--sit down the good and lifted up the bad and the ugly.

1:28:12 David Nordahl

I know.

1:28:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know?

1:28:15 David Nordahl

I know.

1:28:16 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Maybe because she doesn't have that knowledge. She doesn't?

1:28:23 David Nordahl

Nope. That's what so frustrating, you know, so frustrating.

1:28:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But you were telling us about Michael and his purpose. Michael felt that his purpose was to help children. If he had gone on a talk show and explained that, do you think that would have been well-received?

1:28:54 David Nordahl

I am not sure. I think if he had done real early young, before all the conjecture and all of the people making up stories about him. I think if he had gone early in his career, will it had to be almost a child, like a teenager or something, but I think it would have then, but I am not sure later on. I don't think going out a talk show or talking. You know, (crosstalk)

1:29:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Also it's really something.

1:29:31 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. She is going to get the scoop man. I just--I lost all my respect for Oprah after that show, my wife did too. We just couldn't feel it.

1:29:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So did I. So did me. I have no respect for her whatsoever and you know if there are Oprah-ites that are out there, I do apologize, I just do not care for Oprah anymore.

1:29:56 David Nordahl

Nope. I am done with Oprah. I used to think she is a good person, now she did that and then I lost all respect.

1:30:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I just do not understand what her fetishes regarding the Jackson family? (Crosstalk). No she is there with Catherine with all the rest of the family.

1:30:19 David Nordahl

Yup, yup.

1:30:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

If you do not like (crosstalk)...

1:30:22 David Nordahl

I don't know if that is an old __01:30:23__. She is still trying to be a journalist -- you know she is trying to maintain her audience, I guess or something she shows up wherever its handy (laughs).

1:30:37 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. What should she said she did not want to be like Michael and his -- where he could not surpass fuller and she said she was going to surpass what she was doing and so, she was going to go and get all the station.

1:30:55 David Nordahl


1:30:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Having all the station, network, whatever -- network I guess...

1:31:03 David Nordahl

That Oprah.

1:31:04 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And so, that is what she wanted to do. She said she is going to own a network and to make sure that she was (crosstalk) like Michael that is what she said.

1:31:13 David Nordahl

Yeah. I know, but -- you know she was too busy reading her own clippings -- you know, she is trying to be the big, big shot -- you know if you have your own network, how do you get any bigger than that -- you know Mike?

1:31:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But fewer is still sewing and the only network -- her network is failing.

1:31:41 David Nordahl


1:31:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

(Laughs) Her best friend Gail you know Gail walk the way and went some place for herself.

1:31:47 David Nordahl


1:31:48 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So, Thriller even though Michael, remember they have got an album that was more popular than Thriller. Thriller is still selling for network is failing.

1:32:00 David Nordahl

Exactly. (crosstalk) Michael believes the clippings. Michael was a really grounded person. Michael never changed from the time I met on 1988 until you know until the present day. I mean Michael never changed his views, never changed his purpose and never changed -- he never got a big hit from being who he was -- you know because I have known other celebrities and things and sometimes when they get big breaks then all of a sudden they got a lot of press. All of a sudden something changes. They get used to being made over and Michael is never like that. Michael never bought into that stuff. He knew where he was all the time.

1:32:51 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, that is good to know because that is something I do believe that happens to many people. You know, I guess you know like if you could write slime about somebody (inaudible).

1:33:10 David Nordahl

Yeah. Uh-oh you're breaking up again.

1:33:14 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:33:15 David Nordahl

Oh you're breaking up. I cannot understand. I'm losing you. I do not know if she you can hear me or not, but I cannot hear you at all. I will switch over to another phone over here. Let see if this helps at all. Can you hear me now? No? No? I know you're saying something but I cannot I hear you. Listen, I will hang up and I will try to call you back. I do not know why were having these problems on phones. Oh, I cannot you hear at all. I'm going to hang-up right now. I'm going to try to call you right back in the call-in number.

1:34:29 David Nordahl

Hello? Hello? Yeah, I lost her again. I cannot get it back. I lost again I cannot get it back.

1:35:08 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Hello? Can you hear me now? There is something going on -- yeah I can hear you, but I do not know why another people cannot hear you. This is something very strange. Oh, Father! Father in the name of Jesus, why me? Why David, why me. David, I'm going to try to call you back on a regular line okay. And let's see how that works okay. Alright.

1:36:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, goodness I'm back into the show. Alright. I hope you guys out there can hear me this is like very strange. We try to see if we can get David at you guys.

1:37:32 David Nordahl


1:37:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:37:35 David Nordahl

So, we back on the air?

1:37:36 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes, yes. David we're back you on the air and now naturally (laughs) naturally because everybody -- because we were all -- a lot of people (laughter) okay, my heart, my heart, my heart oh my goodness. Okay.

1:37:56 David Nordahl

No it's not your fault is it?

1:37:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I hope not. I hope it is not my fault. Anyway, everybody I have to apologize -- you know how long I have wanted to have David come. Thank you Urge I'm so glad that you can hear me this is all very strange. I think you now, the station cut off that is what happened -- you know because right David and I we're not going to take (laughs).

1:38:25 David Nordahl

No...it's not my fault.

1:38:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You did not do it, we were innocent.

1:38:30 David Nordahl

It's amazing.

1:38:31 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. So, that's we going to blame it on the station. So, we were talking about -- let's us talk about Michael said that he had, all these news that was coming in the __1:38:47__. It is like a blessing or something and I know -- a lot of about everything that happens comes to him from God. So, what about this -- you know I know you said he was fortunate to be to have this talent, but give me a little depths on that because it is like -- so it seems like it was so much a part of him to the point where he could not sleep. He left in other words. I am visualizing a person who lives their mind open to God so much that they cannot shutdown for sleep.

1:39:24 David Nordahl

That is right. It just keeps pouring in -- just keeps pouring in because you know Michael always had great ideas and Michael always thought big. Michael never thoughts small. He was always big you know and so he would have this you know the music would becoming to them. Ideas for how he could help people would becoming to them, all those things and you now Michael -- you know I use to call him Mr. Curious because he just had to know about everything and the thing I missed the most about Michael I guess is when we just sit around talk sometime. We sit around and talk for hours you know...

1:40:08 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:40:09 David Nordahl

And you can talk about you could talk about any subject I do not care if you are talking about Science or Music or Medicine or you know, world politics or whatever. Michael was a voracious reader and he was a very intelligent man and could speak intelligently on almost any subject and most of the times when I really enjoyed our time together, when we could set and discuss things and sometimes we argue, his view would be different than mine. It was always fun. It was always entertaining and it was always enlightening.

1:40:45 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I like those kinds of arguments.

1:40:50 David Nordahl

Me too.

1:40:51 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, just a little bit -- a little debate and sort of like that.

1:40:55 David Nordahl

Yeah, yeah.

1:40:56 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:40:57 David Nordahl

Of course. Yeah. Exchanging ideas.

1:41:01 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

This painting that you did -- you've got a painting -- man, this as beautiful horse and it is a picture and it is called Camelot.

1:41:10 David Nordahl

Oh yeah, that is he and Lisa Marie. Right after he married Lisa Marie, he wanted me to do a portrait of the two of them. And he gave me the idea for it and so I made sketches for him, but at the time when I did those, we were working on two or three other projects. I do not remember what they are but there are some other things that he needed and so I asked him after some sketch and he said I love it just the way it is and I said "Should I put this other things inside and work on this" and he said "No, no get those other things done first" and then as we know -- you know the two of them split up so.

1:41:55 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So you never did...

1:41:58 David Nordahl

Not at that time, I did that any later.

1:41:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. So it was like it was pointless by the time you did it?

1:42:07 David Nordahl

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of it was I guess -- you know I think the two of them had some-- you know at that point that was 1996 and you know Michael wanted to move out of the country. He would really discuss that after that 1993 incident and so that -- and he wanted to move to Paris, but Lisa Marie is very involved with her friends at Los Angeles who were not actors. They were people that she knew from the school where her kids went. And I think she spent a lot of time with the school and she had her circle of friends and (crosstalk). Yes. She do not want to live that and also she absolutely tested having to have security every time she went some place. She really, really does like that and I think just the differences that they have at that time. Just -- you know made it so, but it would not workout. But I really like her. She is really sweet. She is really pretty and she really reminded me a lot of her dad.

1:43:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:43:11 David Nordahl


1:43:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, you know -- I know that there are people that they do not agree with me, I kind of wish that marriage had worked.

1:43:19 David Nordahl

Oh, me too. Me too, I am just also thankful (crosstalk).

1:43:20 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

On the other hand. I think that Debbie have more heart than any of the saint, I mean I think Debbie is good for him -- you know what I mean, we put Debbie on an interview and put Lisa Marie in an interview, Michael is going to come put __01:43:44__ one day before we talk.

1:43:46 David Nordahl

Yeah. Absolutely Debbie cared for Michael. She had known Michael for a long time. And Debbie is a really good person I think.

1:43:54 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes. She cared about him as a person and it was not like -- like this thing were all put keep asking her to come on the show over and over again -- asking Lisa Marie to come on the show over and over again, so they could talk badly about Michael.

1:44:16 David Nordahl

Yup, exactly.

1:44:18 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And so finally, the last -- she was there and she said __ 1:44:21__ I loved Michael.

1:44:24 David Nordahl


1:44:25 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And that was fact.

1:44:27 David Nordahl

Uh-um. Yeah, I think there is a traction on both sides, but they just -- things just didn't work out for them that happens sometimes.

1:44:38 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. I guess it does and I am looking -- I do not why it is that -- you know like this -- I have nobody that ever calls and when I want people to call in because you know guys, I would like you to be able to call and say hello to David. As oppose to being of there -- I hope nobody's fine up, because as I was saying, you're being a bump on the log.

1:45:04 David Nordahl


1:45:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Don't be a bump on the log (laughs).

1:45:11 David Nordahl

I also want to add -- you know that Michael was -- you know he was really funny. He was a real practical joker and -- you know he would laugh at themselves, but -- you know there just so many incidences where he was playing little jokes like, I was in California to help and I was doing some work for Michael. I had my drawing board and all my drawing supplies and stuff. I forgot what project I was working on, Michael was on Sunset Boulevard at the recording studio, so I was working on this thing for Michael and he called me it was about 11 o'clock at night and he said that "Do you get that thing finished?" I said "Yes, I did" and he said "Why don't you bring it over" you know to the music studio and I said "Sure." So, I went over there and when I walked in the front door, he grabbed me and we went into a little storage room and he said "Everybody is mad at me."

1:46:17 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:46:18 David Nordahl

"Why? What happened?" and you know the __ 1:46:21__ was there and Jimmy Jam and you know all these great musicians and Michael has not going over everything (laughs) you know 100 times and these guys are used to lying down the track -- you know one take you know, but Michael (crosstalk) over and over and over (laughs) he keep there until 4-5 o'clock in the morning. (Laughter), so they were all set with the __ 1:46:48__ I had this big portfolio thing, it is a big briefcase kind of thing that I brought all the drawings over and so after we did that and we had some pizza and then I went back to the Hotel and when I left, I thought my briefcase was awful damn heavy and I get back to the hotel, when I open it up is like 20 pounds of bubble gum become cascading (laughs) out of my briefcase. First of all, I did not see him put that in there, but secondly who has a hundred -- you know a thousand pieces of bubble gum (laughs) those from. I don't know where he got those from.

1:47:26 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

(Laughs) Oh my God.

1:47:32 David Nordahl

And you know before I went out there, Evie had called me and said that Michael had a project that he want me to work on and I should come out to Los Angeles while he is recording and so, I said sure and so Evie gave me that number for the recording studio and so I called and told him where I was and then I need to talk to Michael. So, I get this lady on the phone and she has got a real thick Brooklyn accent and she is asking me all these questions about how do I know Michael and what is my business with Michael and all the stuff. Well, I have -- you know I have been doing work for Michael for a long time (laughs) and I was get really irritated and I found that later that was Michael I was talking to.

1:48:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:48:28 David Nordahl

Yeah. That was Michael. He is just messing of me again.

1:48:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Each of us to ask like a -- what do you do to know this for, wait would I answer your -- answer the call for you right now.

1:48:46 David Nordahl

Yeah (laughs) and I said okay.

1:48:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Party here on the air.

1:48:49 David Nordahl

Who the hell is she -- you know so, (laughs).

1:48:53 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Party into the air.

1:48:55 David Nordahl

My business is with...

1:48:56 Louise


1:48:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Michael now with some lady from Brooklyn.

1:48:58 Louise

Hello! Hello?

1:49:02 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:49:03 David Nordahl

You have a call.

1:49:04 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Can you hear me? What's your name?

1:49:05 Louise


1:49:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Hi, Louise.

1:49:09 Louise

Hi, how are you?

1:49:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Very well. Lets go David or did you have something you want to ask David or say to David?

1:49:18 Louise

Yes. I want to ask David about his style or clothing that he always dressed Michael and his portraits. Did Michael adapt that style in his own personal costumes and attires that he loves to wear and in his personal design in his furniture in his picture and things? I know that you guys have similar taste.

1:49:40 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Wait, wait Louise turn down the sound on your computer.

1:49:45 Louise

Okay, sure. No problem.

1:49:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Because we hearing an echo or something. Your hearing yourself.

1:49:49 Louise

We usually live here with my grandchildren so this is a good thing. Okay.

1:49:58 David Nordahl


1:49:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay (Laughs).

1:50:00 Louise


1:50:01 David Nordahl


1:50:02 Louise

Carry on.

1:50:03 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


1:50:04 David Nordahl

In answer to your question yeah Michael really loved -- you know that Arthurian Period kind of him and you know in history and he likes that kind of manner of dress and -- you know children stories and all that kind of stuff. He really did enjoy that kind of thing. I do not know how much that I guess it did quite a bit into the clothing and the costumes that he would wear.

1:50:39 Louise

I think so too and I also sought in his style of furnishings that he likes to pick out for me. He really got into the intricate detailed ornate kind of decorating and it's...

1:50:54 David Nordahl

Oh yes.

1:50:56 Louise

It kind of reminds of you a little bit (laughs).

1:50:59 David Nordahl


1:51:02 Louise

You rubbed off on each other pretty well I think.

1:51:05 David Nordahl

like I went back to L.A. with him once because I was supposed to fly out of Santa Barbara on a Monday morning and this was Sunday night and Michael is going to drive back to LA. And so I told him, I said, "Maybe I'll just ride down with you to L.A. tonight, then I don't have to take that commuter flight from Santa Barbara down to L.A. in the morning. And he said, "No, that'll be fine." And I said, "You know, you can drop me at a hotel or whatever." He said, "No, you stay at my place if you don't mind sleeping on a couch." And I said, 'No, I don't mind." And so we drove down and it was like, 2 o'clock in the morning and before the kids, Michael used to drive around all the time without any kind of security or anything. After the kids were born that all changed because he worried that the kids would be harmed. They always went down to Los Angeles and I was surprised. You know, I expected a penthouse apartment or something. It was just a little two-bedroom apartment. One bedroom is so full of junkie, cannot get in it. You know, if you have a garage sale, I don't think you'll get 150 bucks for everything in his apartment. Except for, you know, he had a popcorn machine and he had a good stereo. And then he had a piano, a grand piano. (Crosstalk)

1:51:06 David Nordahl

Yeah. And you know he really got into furnishings things, you know after the kids were born, before the kids were born...

1:51:11 Louise


1:52:33 Louise

You know, if he were still with us today, he would be definitely a hoarder.

1:52:39 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. Absolutely, and he had a piano stuffed in the kitchen, so you couldn't get into the kitchen. It's a pretty small apartment. He did not live grandly at all before the kids. After the kids were born, then things changed because he needed security, he needed a decent place for them to live. Otherwise before that, he did not care anything about material things.

1:53:05 Louise

I just have one more question for you. I did send you an email to your actual website and Lori answered it for me, but this is more personal. How are you doing? How are you coping?

1:53:15 David Nordahl

I am doing just fine, thank you. Thank you for asking.

1:53:20 Louise

Yeah, I know. Because even as fans, we didn't know them that way. It's still, it's been a grieving process, the most painful thing. I think I have ever experienced in my life. These people that were close to him like you, I just wonder, from day to day, how do you cope? It's a hard enough to see in a fan. You know?

1:53:43 David Nordahl

It was devastating. When I first heard the news that he have been taken to a hospital, I though well. That's fine. They will get him rehydrated. He has been working hard, rehearsing for This Is It concert and they will get him rehydrated and they will send him back home, he'll be fine. I couldn't believe. When they actually said that he was dead, I just refused to believe it at first. I thought, "No, no, no. He will be fine. He is fine". Let's find out what the truth is, you know. And I was just devastated.

1:54:23 Louise

Now, it's like my life has changed and I know a lot of people feel that way, too. Now, I'm at 55, the same age as Michael. I have found purpose. I have found the real purpose and I've taken all that grief might turn it around. And I see so many of his so-called friends, just taking advantage of the fact they knew Michael, and things like that. And it's heartbreaking. I think it's the fans. The fans have been left up to carry on his legacy.

1:54:44 David Nordahl

Of course, absolutely, absolutely. All those people that had understood what Michael was, you know.Of course, absolutely, absolutely. All those people that had understood what Michael was, you know.

1:55:01 Louise

Exactly. But it was great talking to you. I appreciate you taking my call Catherine. Okay. Bye, bye now

1:55:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay. (Crosstalk). Bye Louise.

1:55:15 Louise


1:55:19 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It was constant that she brought up how does it feel for you. It seemed to me that you know, I looked at what Janet Jackson said, "What's going on with my life. And so even though it's four years. I'm still devastated. I was gonna tell you.

1:55:53 David Nordahl

No, me too. I don't want to think about it. Whenever I hear Michael's music, I get stuck up. I just can't believe he's not here.

1:55:54 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I talked to myself, I really couldn't understand how Janet could just say, "Well look, I am moving on". I don't believe it. I don't believe it for a second.

1:56:18 David Nordahl

I don't either. Speaking of.

1:56:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I don't think so. And I don't understand how the Jacksons can. Nothing __1:56:25__ with direct, but I wonder if they miss him.

1:56:31 David Nordahl

You know what, I don't know. I've always said like Michael was closest to Janet. He helped her a lot when she first started recording. They set her up in a studio and all that kind of stuff. Boy, I don't know how he got over that. I don't know about the Jackson 5. He kind of -- Michael...

1:56:41 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

They've gotten away from there.

1:56:55 David Nordahl

Well, yeah. Michael kind of held his family. He loved this family. Don't get me wrong. But I think he kind of held them at arm's length because a lot of his family wanted to be involved in Michael's success. They are always trying to get him to join them as the old Jackson 5. But Michael was a solo artist. He wasn't a group artist. Not a part of a boy band. He was when he was a small kid, but as soon he got older, that feed mood enters on his own music. It wasn't anything against his family. It was just that Michael needed to do things by himself.

1:57:43 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. (Crosstalk) I thought if the family was just a little competitive. And maybe they had a problem with the little brother becoming the one on top. By the way, everybody, I just got a message from the engineer. It says, we are currently experiencing issues with our whole style in numbers and our guest dialing numbers and the engineers are working on it right now. So, they put it and now that we're here together. That's lovely. (Laugh) So that you know.

1:58:22 David Nordahl

That's great they're working on it. What else can you do?

1:58:27 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Relatively well. You could work on it when we need you to do it. You can do that. So, we've got like a nice little group of people here, and I always wonder. Nobody has a name here, but his name is guest. If you don't register your name and your name doesn't come up, and I can't say like for instance, I can say "Hey Beth, how are you doing." Now Beth, Elizabeth. She always, she usually calls in, but in this recent times, she has become a very quiet person. So anyway Beth -- yeah, she has been very quiet. She is an artist and a writer and that's why I'm. Yes, she is an artist and she is a writer, I'm just wondering, you know.

1:59:25 David Nordahl

What's wrong with her?

1:59:28 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Now she's here and she's typing something. But it would be nice if she would seemingly be nice if she just called in because she knows she wants to. Don't you better find her. (Laughs) I know you, I know you girl. She has been one of my friends from the very, very beginning. Yeah, so. That's why I maybe play with her. I don't do that with everybody. So, anyway though, just the whole idea of how we all feel. And that's how this radio show began. I started with just being like, it was to help us. It was a grief. A group for grieving. And they gave off the chance to come together and to talk about things and the way that we feel and what things we were doing and it was amazing. I've never saw so much creativity, just how many people just like that. Because I think we're doing nothing. So, it's just amazing...

2:00:48 David Nordahl

You know, I was fortunate. When Michael passed away, we actually had guests that were here from Norway and Finland, and they are Michael Jackson fans, Elise and her boyfriend, Simmo. So they were here when Michael passed away, which was a huge help for me. Because I was just lost, but like what you're talking about, it gives you somebody to talk to and to exchange some ideas, some things about Michael, you know?

2:01:22 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. They express your feelings. It's something about. Other than that. Here's Elizabeth. She say's, "It's okay, I just got here, just got the email announcement". Maybe she will call in and let's go on. Maybe I will call. You know how, how I tease you, Elizabeth. Don't be mad. Don't be angry with me. Anyway though, the events will happen. Nobody knew what to say. And then there were something else happened. It was a feeling of guilt. I don't know about anybody else. But it came to me, it made me wonder. Why it didn't look like a... There's a picture that you did of Michael with an S on his chest. Why didn't I look like that? Why didn't I go out there and say to him, "We know who he is I couldn't have. But that's just not. It doesn't feel like that. And everybody else had the same thing. So we got the chance to come together and know each other and work out a lot of things. After which, you know now everybody is. We're still working things out, but we are able to do it. It's not, it's not as and it's devastating, you know? I have this picture of yours on your page and it's called The Storyteller. And I tell you, I'm with Michael. I love those kind of pictures. Look like they are children pictures.

2:02:33 David Nordahl

Yeah, you know that grew out of a conversation. Michael and I had one night on the phone. Michael was a voracious reader and he worried that was, with TV and the video games and all that kind of thing that kids were not reading as much as they should. And so, there was a conversation that we had on a phone, and so, after I hung up with him, __ 2:03:30__ that makes a great painting, if I made him a storyteller because Michael really believes in that, so (crosstalk). And then I send it off to him and he just flipped, he just absolutely loved it. I was supposed to have a sketch back so I could do the painting. But he had been keeping the sketch. He would always do that. Like whenever, I would send him a sketch. He would never send it back. He will just keep it.

2:04:00 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So you had to do it again? Do the sketch again?

2:04:04 David Nordahl

No, I fortunately, you know, I copied it before I send it to him. But normally, when I send out on a sketch, I get it back. So I can do the finished work, but he would never send any of them back. If I send some to when a black hole.

2:04:25 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

How do you know where they are now?

2:04:27 David Nordahl

Well, they were supposedly in a warehouse somewhere. You know, that was sometime ago, I assume that he loved all those things and I'm sure he kept them.

2:04:41 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Hello? Oh, I thought you were gone again.

2:04:46 David Nordahl

No I'm not. I'm still here. Can you hear me?

2:04:50 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes, I can. But I mean in my heart, it was like, "Oh no, not again." Not again, I can't take it. What I like about this, what I like about that picture is I wanted a little kid who is there and he is fascinated. He's got his hands on his face like he's biting his fingernails. There is something just going on there. And I like that teacher with a little kid. I like reading to kids and all those really big books where you turn around and show them the pictures and everybody go wanted to see the picture.

2:05:34 David Nordahl

Sure. And also -- Michael and I were talking about is that you know, when you see the film, it's fun and exciting and all that stuff, but you're seeing the director's version of the story but when you read the book. When you read the book, you'll see his pictures that they create inside your mind. So at the same time, when you're reading, you're also forming a visual thing about whatever you're reading. You're seeing it in your mind's eye. And that's why we like to read is because we make up what it looks like.

2:06:17 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Alright. Because if we -- caller, you're on the air. We know that every word is -- it's just standing and form a picture depending upon how you live and say cheer to someone and they will visualize performing cheers someone else and visualize something much more fancy.

2:06:46 David Nordahl

That's right.

2:06:48 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So it depends upon where your heart is, where your life is, what pictures you see and always like that expression. You get the picture. Finally, what's your name?

2:06:50 Brick Price

My name is Brick Price and I'm glad to (Crosstalk) Christine. Hi, how are you doing?

2:07:04 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I'm Catherine. It's nice to meet you.

2:07:08 Brick Price

I'm sorry, that's Christine, I apologize. Anyway, David Nordahl, this is Brick Price. I knew Michael pretty well as well and I'm gonna be interviewed tomorrow for some of the things that I know about him, which is not a whole lot, and I pretty much concur with a lot of what you just said. I just got home prior about 20 minutes ago so I missed unfortunately the live broadcast but if somebody wanted to be part of the admiration society here and said that your workmanship is just amazing. And you know -- I mean I've been calling artist, but the sort of things that I do, but it's different from the way you do them. It has a brilliant and you know, I'm thinking, once you're responsible for the Neverland __2:07:53__ logo as well.

2:07:57 David Nordahl

No, actually I didn't. That was done before I met Michael. Because...

2:08:03 Brick Price

Well, I go the (Crosstalk) go ahead.

2:08:06 David Nordahl

No I was about to say that, when I met Michael, they were just finalizing the deal on the ranch.

2:08:10 Brick Price


2:08:11 David Nordahl

But he was already involved in preparing promotional material all that kind of stuff. So he already had the logo at the time when I met him.

2:08:22 Brick Price

Because what we did was we carved the wood, the wood signs. Somebody really wants that we're around the ranch and based on the pictures of it, which you know you can have but the art work was done, and then of course, I, the reason I'm in this little blueprint that because of Rob. He contacted me and Rob kind of stole my job. And that I have been working with Michael as a friend. That we have kept the deal. And we got to know each other fairly well. As I think Brad said, we considered each other friends but that wasn't the kind of guy that he would kibbutz with. He did call me the next morning but whenever kibbutz -- but I remember, we built a train for him that was small. __2:09:13__ And then I suddenly realized he wanted the real thing __2:09:18__ and she contacted Rob and then Rob built the train and he came in with the artwork on it and that was nice. He did it, it was quite nice.

2:09:30 David Nordahl

Oh yeah, yeah.

2:09:31 Brick Price

But your artwork is, like he said, Michael, he said that he was, that the music just came to him. And it is if what you did was the visual side of it, so it's like he was the ears and like you were the eyes. You can visualize it, then you became the eyes and the hands. And that's kind of where I felt that many of us were.

2:09:53 David Nordahl

Yeah. You know, opinions about everything. I remember being in a golf car with him at the ranch, and we passed by a place that he stopped and he looked at it and he went back and talked to Norma. He said that, every head that he mounded up, and then all had to be planted with flowers and within about 20 minutes, there were earth movers. (Laughs) But he always had an eye on everything. And he could always have a cool picture of what he wanted.

2:10:30 Brick Price

But he had the same kind of thing happened on we work on Moonwork there was the visual effects director and a couple of things. And so I was at the ranch when it was in the __ 2:10:39__ stages before Rob came along obviously and same kind of thing happened. He felt the place was so magical and it was. He even __ 2:10:46__. He saw the movie, he has a scene where he is running through a meadow with flowers and the same thing exactly the thing happened where he planted the field with yellow flowers just for the sake of the shot on the film. He was very detail on it, so then now looking at your pictures, the picture of him working as a kid, it's very reminiscent on that scene from the film.

2:11:11 David Nordahl

That's right, yeah. I know. He had always -- he planned everything on it. At one point, he had a lake frost at the ranch and lots of flowers died from the frost. And Michael was just devastated and everybody had pulled all the plants and then Norma said that the place was a bottom over and hollow I think was like they brought every flower that they had over there. He brought them over and planted them all again.

2:11:52 Brick Price

That is where the yellow flowers came from. But he had a bunch of it.

2:11:54 David Nordahl

Yeah, no, yeah. And the grounds they were just unbelievable. It was a magical place. My wife and I were there. And night came and there always birds singing. And Lori said, "Wow, this place is so magical. Even the birds sing at night." But then he got of all those speakers, you know. (Crosstalk) (Laughter) Yeah, that's great. And it's all they have these bird songs and then across that one pond over the first place where the kids got off on a train, in the smaller train over there. There was the classical music playing across the pond. It really was magical place.

2:12:40 Brick Price

Now that smaller train, how big was it? Was it a little industrial locomotive with the chimney that you could ride on top of?

2:12:47 David Nordahl

Well, there were cars pulled behind and the locomotive the engineer sat and the backside locomotive, it was a scaled down version of a train. (crosstalk)

2:13:01 Brick Price

It sounds like the one we built.

2:13:03 David Nordahl

I'm sure that was the first train that went in.

2:13:07 Brick Price

That's what _ 2:13:10_. Because I remember _ 2:13:12__ because connection and I was in the 3D, and he loved this engine well. Now, he loved (crosstalk). And I think that if he was reincarnated it had been through Michael. (Crosstalk) I honestly feel that Michael was reincarnate, and he had this kind of impression.

2:13:36 David Nordahl

Does he kept in contact with Walsh's wife.

2:13:38 Brick Price

I don't know that.

2:13:40 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. He sure did.

2:13:44 Brick Price

So do you know __2:13:47__ Disney's artist.

2:13:47 David Nordahl

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

2:13:49 Brick Price

He moved over and I was fortunate, __ 2:13:55__ is to Walt as Brad and I, Michael, you and I, the three of us __ 2:14:06__ because I was in the train in 3D and of course _2:14:11__ and you were an artist, like the battery of artists that he had. And I was fortunate enough to work for Disney and he was calling me because of my interest in 3D was called in to work with him and that's when we met. And that's when he was fascinated. Michael is already fascinated with the whole concept of the paragon getting involved and so on and so forth.

2:14:31 David Nordahl

Oh yeah.

2:14:33 Brick Price

And so I just wish that it could gone of course, but I saw it going and had been derailed by some of these other, I'm sorry to have interrupted your show, but I just (crosstalk), take advantage of the fact that I can say face-to-face I think here your work is absolutely brilliant and wonderful, wonderful tribute to him. Have you had these published or you're planning on publishing them?

2:14:58 David Nordahl


2:14:59 Brick Price

You should.

2:15:00 David Nordahl

Well, I don't know if I should do that.

2:15:05 Brick Price

No, they should be sure __2:15:12__, but I have a thousand, I mean I don't know what to do either -- no I have several hundred 3D photographs at the ranch because I was more -- see were you and Brad and Rob were more at the park most of the time. I was behind the scene on the various projects like Moonwalk, the Bad Tour and Dangerous Tour, that sort of things so that's why...

2:15:36 David Nordahl

Did you do some filming around like because somebody shot a bunch of 35-mm film of Michael and I don't know it that was you or someone else.

2:15:45 Brick Price

35-mm film or stills.

2:15:47 David Nordahl

No, 35 motion picture film.

2:15:50 Brick Price

No I didn't shoot any motion up there.

2:15:52 David Nordahl

Okay, alright.

2:15:53 Brick Price

But I was one of maybe a half dozen people at the very most, well aside from Quincy Jones and people like that and kids. Whenever they come up to visit, he was having a bunch of kids there. I have heard breaking story that they tell during my interview tomorrow night but -- Michael, I was witnessed to a lot of things. In fact, one of my son's friends lived for a year after the doctor said she was gonna die. She was about four or something. And he brought to her so much of joy that he just literally breathe life back into her.

2:16:34 David Nordahl

Yeah. No, no you go ahead.

2:16:35 Brick Price

I absolutely think why would he then just start career elsewhere, why would you not want to publish them?

2:16:41 David Nordahl

Yeah, I know.

2:16:43 Brick Price

No, I said why would you not want to publish your picture?

2:16:45 David Nordahl

Oh me, I don't know. I just -- I didn't want make anyone else to my colleague __2:16:50__

2:16:50 Brick Price

Why you don't have to I feel the same way you do? The bulk and the money can go to charities. I mean there's plenty of things where we saw that work.

2:17:01 David Nordahl

That's true, I guess, yeah.

2:17:03 Brick Price

There are millions, I mean millions of people who just smile at seeing his pictures in a really good artsy kind of a book. In fact, you never thought we did that carving. I always say, it would be wonderful to do a coffee table book that had leather bound cover that was embossed with a logo, the Neverland logo, and then on the inside, you can have all of your, really good quality leaflets, do that in 3D glasses and some of the 3D images (crosstalk). It would be an amazing book. And Rob has pictures of them. A combination between you, me, Rob, Brad, and __ 2:17:55__. Anyway there was four of us that were involved with the ranch. Just maybe a wonderful book to produce.

2:18:04 David Nordahl

Why really, why because you know that, the ranch?

2:18:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

There's a person who wants to talk to you guys. Party around here, 916.

2:18:11 Susan

Hi, I couldn't hear you very well, can you hear me okay?

2:18:15 David Nordahl

I can hear you.

2:18:19 Susan

Hi! This is Susan. I live in Orangeville, California, which is greater Sacramento. I love the fact that you just dropped in Brick. Hearing you talk with David, I mean I'm sitting here thinking, this is great, I could listen to these two guys. (Laughs)

2:18:39 David Nordahl

It's a mutual admiration society and we have common knowledge here, is Michael.

2:18:45 Susan

I know, I was just thinking of how wonderful it would be all these things going on in my head. How different people have had various similar __ 2:18:53__ currently doing this in the studio, seminars, and I'm thinking that people that had connections to the Neverland Ranch and had various responsibilities. It would be a really neat thing if some kind of a symposium or get together or whatever fancy name you wanna call it could be created where you and like David Nordahl and then people that really knew and loved Michael could come and have, maybe not a real prepared talk, but just get together and talk and have this available to a group of fans. I mean this would be a fantastic thing for Michael Jackson fans to be able to take part ...

2:19:39 David Nordahl

I just lost contact I don't know if you can hear me or not.

2:19:41 Brick Price

David, we can hear you fine.

2:19:44 David Nordahl

Everything just went dead here.

2:19:47 Brick Price

We can hear you David.

2:19:48 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

David, __2:19:49__ that's pretty much what we're trying to do here, Susan?

2:19:55 Susan

Yes. Yeah, I'm here.

2:19:58 Brick Price

Go ahead.

2:19:59 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:20:08 Brick Price

Something weird is happening on suddenly with...

2:20:10 David Nordahl

I don't know if you can hear me or not, but I'll just hang up.

2:20:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well I try to get this real quick, but just a thrilled to be able to say how much I admire your art, David.

2:20:23 Brick Price

David's out there, unfortunately.

2:20:25 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, he is? No. I just wanted the fact that you came on and we're talking about the train and different things, too bad that we lost it. Anyway, we can get it back. (Crosstalk)

2:20:42 Brick Price

(Crosstalk) But our kids too, when you're talking about something like that, our son and daughters spend a fair amount of time up there, and they have their own stories, in fact our son wanted to come forth during the trials and testify on Michael's behalf because he thought it was so unfair and the attorneys, our attorneys, Michael's attorneys said, no, that they would just roast him and it would ruin his life. He was quite well and to just step in and say, what a great guy Michael was.

2:21:20 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:21:22 Brick Price

And to hear their stories now I mean every one's in a while I have been able to talk about Michael ever since he died. By the way, David, are you back, aren't you?

2:21:31 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I'm trying to get him.

2:21:33 Brick Price

When Michael died and I couldn't even, I literally had to put the stuff away and not even look at it. And if it haven't been for Rob going me up, I got to love him about a month ago I'll probably still would have to __ 2:21:44__, but we literally found a DVD of Moonwalker which I worked on three segments of that, doing special effects and visual effects and that was great. I mean the kids spent a fair amount of time on stage with us and then they came down because he did not mind especially if the kids were well behaved and understood being behind the scenes. He loves having the kids around because that was he was playing to, the kids. He really did enjoy telling stories and see kids light up and making them believe in mythology, if you will or the love, he is always saying the message of love.

2:22:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Right. I actually could picture Michael in a role, in a movie where he is some kind of a magical character where he interacts with children. It's probably one of the real tragedies that we didn't get to see that part of his creativity to the point where he wanted it to happen.

2:22:46 Brick Price

Well, here's an interesting thing with especially, because, you know nothing about me, I know, but my background is special effects, I won an Emmy, and I'm still very active in special effects, working in films all the time. You would not believe what you can do in or recreate images. Imagine what they do with recreating dinosaurs and with the CGI.

2:23:08 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh I know, yeah.

2:23:10 Brick Price

There is enough of the visual information on Michael and is enough movement and enough, there has been -- they've tracked his movements. And we have body moulds of him when we are doing the robot. So you could quite literally recreate Michael Jackson as an animation or be scary. It will be so realistic. It will be a magnificent tribute to him. It would be the greatest __ 2:23:33__ picture of David Nordahl's where Michael is astride a horse, I hope you've seen that and trying something out of a Cinderella or whatever and have a Disney film but it's like Disney to another level.

2:23:43 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Exactly. Yeah.

2:23:47 Brick Price

And maybe David's battery ran out.

2:23:52 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I'm trying to get David back. This is something that's going on with the studio and they said they are working on it, and I would tell you why, when there's something. (crosstalk).

2:24:09 Brick Price

Maybe you can impose on him to interrupt mine because you can probably hear my throat, I have two broken ribs and it's very difficult to talk. But I wanted so much to speak about Michael that this has been very important to me and so even with the pain and the painkillers, etc. I was hoping I'd be able to pull my weight tomorrow night and talk and I spoke to Rob about calling in and kind of boosting me and my son. He is gonna at the ready in case I start coughing or something. But when in the morning you may listen to me for that reason now, but hopefully David can come on tomorrow night, perhaps and we can send a short dialogue then because it's easier for me, if you remember things, it turns out that when we talk amongst ourselves we all remember things.

2:25:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Is this why I was hoping. Alright, here's David now. Hello? Yeah David, you have me, but you don't hit me on the station, so I've been trying to call you. This is the station, it's not you, it's not me. We really -- it's the first time we're playing thing that we're innocent, but David we really are innocent. You didn't do it and neither did I.

2:25:36 Brick Price

And certainly it wasn't my fault.

2:25:38 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

No it wasn't your fault either.

2:25:39 Susan

I've lost contact twice with his Blog Talk Radio Program. I don't know what kind of issues they're having, but it's affecting the callers.

2:25:51 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It's affecting all of us. I'm trying to get him back. That's lovely.

2:26:05 Susan

Well, I don't wanna take up the time. I did very much enjoy listening to you, two, Brick (crosstalk)

2:26:13 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But we've got another caller and I'm gonna check to see if I can get, David, I'm calling you right back.

2:26:22 David Nordahl

You told me to hang up?

2:26:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, you have to hang up.

2:26:24 David Nordahl

Okay. (Crosstalk)

2:26:28 David Nordahl

Hi, this is David Nordahl Avatar speaking, can I help you? (Crosstalk). Hello?

2:26:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:26:43 Brick Price

We love technology.

2:26:45 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes, don't we? Don't we are such so wonderful...

2:26:48 Brick Price

(Crosstalk) our technology and it's still a love-hate relationship.

2:26:52 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, I'm gonna say, computers can't live, technology can't live with it and you really can't live without it, so.

2:26:59 Brick Price

No, they did not show a couple of minutes but they proved that they had kids and they took all our stuff away for a couple of days.

2:27:03 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, I've seen things like that. Women especially, had to give up their cell phones.

2:27:10 Brick Price

Oh yeah, it was worth than drugs, but you know. They act like little drug addicts. They were shaking and did not communicate. (Laughs) I mean they look like the worst stone I've ever met. Anyway, can I put in on David or talk about something else where anything you wanna know or anybody

2:27:30 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

We'll talk in the meantime. We are trying to get David back, so.

2:27:36 Brick Price

Smoking if you got them. No, no, no. I don't like smoking.

2:27:40 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, I look forward to listening to you then tomorrow. What time does the show start tomorrow?

2:27:44 Brick Price

Well that's why I was calling you then. I just got trapped somehow in going down here. I was literally calling you to find out what to do. (Crosstalk). I called the number, the only number I had, and here we are. So I guess I have to figure it out. So that we lose David permanently or what's going on or how long he was suppose to speak?

2:28:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

No, it's not __2:28:25__.

2:28:28 Brick Price

If you're going to this telephone server hang up right now and change server.

2:28:33 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh why for technology, let's try this again. Oh, I told David I'd be right back with him and now...

2:28:39 Brick Price

I've used up all my dogs and ponies to hurry back.

2:28:44 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh my gosh! David is probably out back cleaning. He gave up trying.

2:28:52 Brick Price

Tell him I welcome him tomorrow night to make up the time, honestly. Swear to God.

2:28:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:28:58 Brick Price

I need his help ___2:28:57__ in case I start coughing.

2:29:03 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Alright, we still had to try to get him one more time.

2:29:08 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh my goodness!

2:29:10 Brick Price

Is it working?

2:29:12 David Nordahl

It's working for me.

2:29:13 Brick Price

Oh thank God, welcome back, David.

2:29:18 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Thank God.

2:29:19 Brick Price

Hail our conquering hero.

2:29:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:29:24 Brick Price

Now David needs to do a painting of him vanquishing the phone company.

2:29:28 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

You know what's the need of painting? You need a painting to see the beads popping out of my head while I'm trying...

2:29:36 David Nordahl

__2:29:34__ radio is dead air.

2:29:37 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

With my hair hanging and beads of sweat popping off my forehead. (Incomprehensible)

2:29:55 Brick Price

Now that he's back on, it sounds terrible.

2:29:58 David Nordahl

I was break up, I can hear you now.

2:30:01 Brick Price

I can hear you. David, I can hear you perfectly but she's breaking up.

2:30:05 David Nordahl

Yeah. She is breaking up for me too.

2:30:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

David Nordahl. I just wanted say how much I appreciate your art. You are just one of the most talented artist. I just love what you do and I love what you done for Michael and I guess more than anything that he had such a great friendship with you too. I love listening to your voice. You sound like a very, very, gentle, caring, wonderful, imaginative person just the type of person that Michael Jackson was so I could see why you two had such a great friendship and well.

2:30:42 David Nordahl

Thank you so much you are very kind.

2:30:45 Brick Price

No. That was typical of all the people that I have met who were friends of his. That is true and they were human beings. He liked me because as a family man and because I was kid. I was a kid at heart and even now I'm gazillion years old, I still am, and David obviously has the imagination of a child and I think that is relevant.

2:31:08 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, I think the most fun I've had and I'll soon be 65 and it's 2 years ago when our company had a picnic and we engaged in a water balloon fight. I had a better time during that little episode than I had in a long time. So, you know, I guess I'm a big kid too.

2:31:26 David Nordahl

Yeah, he loved balloon fights too. He created that little spot down there with a little Indian village and a bridge and all these balloon launchers and __2:31:35__. He was a practical joker. I was there in the ranch and Eddie Murphy was gonna be driving up from L.A.

2:31:45 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh geez!

2:31:46 David Nordahl

And Michael and I were riding on a train. The train had just been installed and Max, the little 3-year-old chimp was afraid of the train, so Michael would hold him and we started out with him, we were in the back of the train and then as the evening went on then we got up closer and closer and closer to the engine and then finally Max actually sat in the conductor's or the guy running the train. He sat in his lap and so I -- while we were on the train, Eddie drove in an Michael said, "Oh! He's here too early I was gonna get the water balloon." Because he was waited for Eddie to come up to the front door and he's got to throw water balloons. (Laughs)

2:32:30 Brick Price

That's the pairing I would love to see, the two of them together.

2:32:33 David Nordahl

Yeah, that was great. I was surprised at how shy Eddie was at first. He came in and he sat down. He played the piano for about 20 minutes, excellent pianist, and then we had dinner that night and when dinner was almost over, Michael told the guy that run that projector down theater to bring the chimps up. Max and Alex and so we were sitting around the table and he brought them up and of course they were all dressed up and they were like little kids at first. They're real shy kind of first time went on, they started playing. They were like little kids and the guy from the theater told them to calm down and they both looked at him like, "Who are you? You're not the boss, right?" And when Max went and sat in Michael's lap and Max had a drink of water off from Michael's glass and Eddie was just horrified. He said, "Oh my God! Why did you let him drink off your glass?" And Michael told him he said, "He is more likely to get something from me than I am to get something from him."

2:33:47 Brick Price

I heard that those chimps were cleaner than my kids.

2:33:50 David Nordahl

Oh yeah. The chimps were great. I love those guys and the orangutan, the female was named Randy and then they had a male too and the male was just humongous.

2:34:04 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh, they are huge. (Crosstalk)

2:34:08 David Nordahl

I brought some Skittles back for her and they brought her out and she looked at me and a had long gray hair so I'm like an Alpha male and she just fell in love with me. I tried to give her a Skittle and she took my hand and turned it around and put it up to my mouth and then rubbed it all over her chest and her belly and she hugged me and she just won't let go. Finally, we had to pout her back in her cage and I felt so bad for her. She's wanted to keep me.

2:34:43 Brick Price

Maybe Michael brought you to her.

2:34:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That's an amazing (crosstalk)

2:34:48 Brick Price

Did you ever meet their lion. __02:34:49__ close up.

2:34:51 David Nordahl

Last year.

2:34:54 Brick Price

Oh no, no. Don't go away, David can you hear us? Good gone.

2:35:00 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

David? David, what's going on?

2:35:04 Brick Price

I was gonna ask him if he'd ever met the lion?

2:35:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

David is totally __2:35:05__.

2:35:07 Brick Price

You can call him again. You think it could be me? Do you want me to go outside and get off the line?

2:35:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

What number are you on. Who's at 916?

2:35:19 Susan

Me, that's Susan.

2:35:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

And look what happened on the line. Rather let somebody else get on here.

2:35:26 Brick Price

There might be just too much signal.

2:35:27 S

It has been wonderful talking to everyone. Catherine, you are the __02:35:31__ putting this all together. Thank you so much. Have a great evening and I will be listening in tomorrow.

2:35:38 David Nordahl

Thank you for calling in

2:35:39 S

You bet.

2:35:40 David Nordahl

and I think it would be a great idea to have like something where we can have a discussion like we are now where there's 4 or 5 of us together.

2:35:46 Susan

Yeah. Yeah.

2:35:48 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

We should be able to do that. You know what I really wish. I will have my television studio up at the beginning of next month. I would so love it. Well I know you guys will compare because I'm in Chicago and I can't do anything about it. I just have to be in Chicago unless somebody give me some directions on another way to do it because I'm not technologically saying.

2:36:16 David Nordahl

Well Brad could probably help you. Brad and I together can try to figure out how to do a video teleconferencing.

2:36:23 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay, good then let's do this then.

2:36:27 David Nordahl

The technology is pretty good. I mean were doing a show in Israel right. Space show fro NASA and its amazing what we are able to accomplish, just what iPhones.

2:36:36 Susan

Oh wow!

2:36:37 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay, well then good, then let us start working on that and we will be able to have a total talk show. You know, it would be great. It would be great.

2:36:48 David Nordahl

Thank you for call in by the way.

2:36:49 Susan

You are very welcome. Thank you for sharing.

2:36:50 David Nordahl

What I can is I can bail. If once you get him back on the try cutting me off. See if it's okay now that she is gone. If not, they I can bail because it might had to deal with the multiplex signals or something I don't know.

2:37:10 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Okay I will try one more time to get David back. I don't know the case is.

2:37:15 David Nordahl

I would love to have drop in my conversation

2:37:20 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

But we all behave like about 15. I don't know what is going on. Well we have 15 more minutes left in the show.

2:37:27 David Nordahl

I know.

2:37:29 Brick Price

We'd have to talk really, really fast.

2:37:31 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:37:36 David Nordahl

Ok, now I can here both of you perfectly.

2:37:37 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well something else is going on where I can have as many people. I'm supposed to be able to have 50 people in here.

2:37:43 David Nordahl

It's perfect now.

2:37:47 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I only have like

2:37:51 Elizabeth

Catherine, can you hear me, Catherine?

2:37:54 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh! It's Elizabeth.

2:37:56 Elizabeth

Yeah, it's me. You know I called in. I've been -- you know listening for a few and I originally called in to see if I could hear you better on the phone and the only way anyone can hear the program right now is by calling in. We are getting no sound out here. Just so you know that.

2:38:18 Brick Price

Oh no. (Crosstalk)

2:38:25 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I wanna know. I wanna know why they do these things when I really -- I must tell them, I don't this to be happening to me tomorrow.

2:38:34 Brick Price

Well, David there goes your 15 minutes of glory.

2:38:35 David Nordahl


2:38:39 Brick Price

I got 5 minutes of glory.

2:38:43 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

So, there's who has just sent me a note and she says, "Hello from Portugal. She says thank you for all you do I'm so sorry I just could not, she says she can't talk because she does not speak English but she lost her connection several times. Best studio. This is very unusual. I must tell you.

2:39:03 Brick Price

I hope you have a recording so that you can play it back.

2:39:06 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, it is recorded.

2:39:07 Brick Price

What? Is it recorded?

2:39:09 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, it is recorded and when plays backwards you're gonna hear people saying is I'm sorry you're disconnected. I just wanna it's amazing.

2:39:17 Brick Price

No. But in a hope you got David. (crosstalk)

2:39:18 Elizabeth

David, are you here.

2:39:20 S

I need you to hear the rest of this show that I note.

2:39:22 Elizabeth

Bet he can't hear it.

2:39:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Let's put on the recording. So I don't want that to happen again.

2:39:29 Elizabeth

Though since all of us hang up. So you could at least send some David back for the end

2:39:35 S

Yeah, you think that would help? I am certainly, certainly you need to ask him about question within that area. If you are curious to find out that if that happened during the whole show before you got people calling in.

2:39:45 David Nordahl


2:39:49 Elizabeth

We gonna call back then.

2:39:50 Brick Price

But David would you be available tomorrow night? Again? David Nordahl (02:39:54): Yeah. I might call in a__2:39:55__ same time.

2:39:57 Brick Price

It is because what I am thinking is that because of my condition and I think being to play off with you was very inconvenient for me and you see is anybody did miss the program and if she can't pull it forward, I would hate to lose that ability to hear what you are talking about.

2:40:15 David Nordahl

Oh. That's very kind of you.

2:40:18 Brick Price

No. no. no. It's not my station. (Laughs) I am just saying that I think it would be a sin to lose what you are saying and so hopefully it is recorded. (Crosstalk)

2:40:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah, it is recorded. I wish you were also recorded.

2:40:35 Brick Price

Ok good. Then it should be fine, but still the invitation is open because I would love to have David back on because there were gaps since he worked in one air and I worked in another. But I'm not go away.

2:40:49 David Nordahl

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

2:40:51 Brick Price

And let you finish up the show.

2:40:54 David Nordahl

Alright, good talking with you Brick and maybe I will call in tomorrow night when you are on.

2:40:56 Brick Price

It's Brick with a B.

2:40:57 David Nordahl


2:40:58 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Brick. Yeah.

2:40:59 David Nordahl

Brick, that's right. Yes, I'm sorry.

2:41:01 Brick Price

No, it's quite right. (Crosstalk) Okay. Bye-bye.

2:41:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

__2:41:07__ there's Elizabeth, I thought it was Nick.

2:41:12 Elizabeth

Yeah, I thought it was Nick and that sounds wonderful, whimsical, art by this by this Nick Price __2:41:19__ and then I looked up. Is it P-R-I-C-E, the last name?

2:41:25 David Nordahl

I think it's Y. P-R-Y-C-E, I think.

2:41:30 Elizabeth

Oh no wonder. Okay. Well, anyway hello David Nordahl and thank you so much for given your time to share with us about your origin and your time with Michael and it's really is very wonderful to hear his stories. You have such a pleasant voice in a way that it is really comforting to hear you.

2:41:57 David Nordahl

Oh. Thank you.

2:41:58 Elizabeth

The first time that I had known of you was from this one painting that is Michael is just about nude but with his white light cloth wrapped around him and like little cherub-like angels above him. You know the painting I mean, I don't know, what is the name of this?

2:42:19 David Nordahl

It's called Michael.

2:42:22 Elizabeth

It's just called Michael. Okay.

2:42:24 David Nordahl

Yeah. That's a big painting of him

2:42:25 Elizabeth

Maybe that why I forgot anyway.

2:42:27 David Nordahl

It was like 12 feet high. It's a big painting.

2:42:31 Elizabeth

Oh my. Well, I was so taken by that image, the fist time I saw it. All I could think of to write in the response at whatever blog it was. It was nice legs.

2:42:42 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

My goodness.

2:42:49 Elizabeth

I had to laugh at myself because I'm not one of a fan that is like taken by him in a sexual way. I find Michael to be much more sensuous and sexual and there is a difference so anyway. Thank you Catherine for asking me to call in and it's always great to hear your voice and I appreciate on what you do and placing your heart in all and it's great to talk to you know. Anyway, I thought what would I say to call in and the first thing that comes to mind is a creed of expression and just how empowering that is and how everyone should have something created in their life because it's a part of all us

2:43:47 David Nordahl


2:43:48 Elizabeth

This creative self and I tend to believe that a lot of what Michael endured which must have been very painful and we can only imagine looking in from the outside is that how he got through a lot of what he got through is by expressing and continuing to create whether it was songwriting, dancing, drawing, and he even speaks some that I have a quote, and I think its actually as quotes because I have come to find out some quotes of his aren't actually his but anyway, yeah that just a main dropping Michael Jackson tends to get all the fog things up sometimes with his little work were so anyway, he speaks about music as being therapeutic.

2:44:48 David Nordahl


2:44:52 Elizabeth

and I just thought of you and wondered and certainly some maybe very personal and they would not want you to share anything that was that personal on Michael's behalf but did you find this? You know, knowing him that this creed of expression helped to get him through a lot of what he went through?

2:45:18 David Nordahl

Oh absolutely. In fact, you know Michael would go up to his dance studio and sometimes shoot dance for hours. It was a form of meditation for him. Music was meditation and it was music is as you know is a healing thing.

2:45:40 Elizabeth

Certainly and we all had the music in us and that's a lot of people don't realize that in breathing with breathing and the heartbeat. Electrical impulses. It goes on and on the rhythms that we have inside.

2:45:56 David Nordahl

That's right. That's right. That's why we are so attracted to music. Yeah.

2:46:04 Elizabeth

Yes. Well, I've worked a lot in the art as therapy and I tied the word therapy, I think healing is much gentler word but finally an art therapy was first accepted as a means of therapy post World War II. The first that I know of it, I mean reading a history of "art therapy" that it was used as a means of a rehabilitation and it was to help the veterans readopt to society but it is a long, long road and I am advocate for the art in-health care and big on natural remedies and how much more natural can you get and so I can understand why it is such a long road to get music and dance movement and painting and drawing all into health care agencies and hospitals to help children and so on. It's a long road but it's finally, finally starting to be recognized.

2:47:27 David Nordahl

That's right it is.

2:47:28 Elizabeth

It works.

2:47:30 David Nordahl

Yes, it does. It works.

2:47:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I think therefore that Michael is talking. I hope everybody can hear me now but I think he was talking about they have this tape where he sounds like he is like in another world but he is talking right now. He is saying that kids in the hospitals are depressed. They are depressed because they don't have things that are artistic.

2:47:55 David Nordahl

That's right.

2:47:57 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

That recording of him is definitely for the most part of saying.

2:48:02 David Nordahl

Uh-oh. I lost you again.

2:48:05 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I am calling again.

2:48:06 David Nordahl

Broke up and I lost you.

2:48:07 Elizabeth

I can hear you.

2:48:08 David Nordahl

I'll hang up again if you can hear me.

2:48:11 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Oh no, no, no. Please don't hang up. Elizabeth? Elizabeth?

2:48:17 Elizabeth


2:48:18 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

He hung up.

2:48:19 Elizabeth


2:48:21 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well okay, we are at the end of this. We only have like about 4 more minutes left and I tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm going to just simply pick a song and play it out. Play as out of here and the song that I like is Behind the Mask. So everybody I'm sorry that we have such a drift of time with what went with the show but there is good news, we will be back tomorrow and will be back with David with Brick, with Brad, and believe me, we will be back with five people.

2:49:05 Elizabeth

Do you know what time yet, Catherine?

2:49:07 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

It will be at the same time. All these shows are at the same. We will be back at 6 o'clock and then Saturday, we will back again at six with another great show.

2:49:20 Elizabeth

Oh my (crosstalk) if you will be back then it's Michael's birthday. I just want to say this quick thing that he said, "Music is a monster that soothes the soul, it's therapeutic, it's something our body has to have like food."

2:49:37 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yes. Yes. Well, I'm gonna play a song, I don't know and we will talk tomorrow and prayerfully under better circumstances and that it will be better. I know that.

2:49:59 Elizabeth

At least we got some good laugh. I will be here.

2:50:02 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

No. For that hear me. I want you to know once again, I love you and do come back tomorrow. Okay?

2:50:08 Elizabeth

Okay, I love you too. Okay, bye.

2:50:12 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:50:20 Elizabeth

I hope we gonna be able to hear this song.

2:50:24 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

I am trying to get you to hear the song.

2:50:27 Elizabeth


2:50:29 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Appeared some other kind of problem. You're right.

2:50:34 Elizabeth

Oh there is.

2:55:34 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Well, for anybody who can hear me and I wanna say goodnight.

2:55:41 Elizabeth

I can hear you.

2:55:45 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross

Yeah. Just will be -- I will just have a better night tomorrow. So I'm thinking that there have been some problems with the station early on today, I saw some things but you see these things. You think maybe I did it wrong but no there is a problem here and I'm sure it would be taken care of by tomorrow. Tomorrow we're gonna have a great show. Tell everybody and I will see you then. I love you girl. Bye-bye.

2:56:08 Elizabeth

Okay, I will share. Okay, bye.

2:56:11 Rev Dr Catherine M Gross


2:56:12 Elizabeth

Love you too.