Why I left Ti and Do's Heaven's Gate group

When I left Ti and Do's Heaven's Gate group in September of 1994 it was because of my failure to recognize how much I wanted to "shine" as opposed to how much I wanted to be of service with all of my being to those who had nutured (loved) us from the beginning, "us" being all seedlings in their keeping. It was over ten years after leaving that I finally came to terms with that one seemingly little synopsis of what was for me the greatest human characteristic I had yet to overcome.

Sometime slightly before the Branch Davidian massecur by the federal government in Waco, in 1993, Do had instructed the classroom to each begin experimenting with a dialog with Ti, Ti having left her body on May 19th 1985. It was to see if we'd formed a type of mind graft, primarily to see if we would be able to recognize Ti's acknowledgement and reponse to our asking. We would report to Do anything we got back that we felt was from Ti. I admit some skepticism, not a strong characteristic of mine I recognized about myself at the time, but it's easier to see these things afterwards. In any case I began talking to Ti, asking for what's next for me (us,the class), a common communication we regularily sought to express sufficiently to ready us for what might be in store.

Of course critics might say...see you were told to regularily express that and that's brainwashing. Which my response is that, sure and with that in mind tell me what's being done to virtually every member of society from day one out of the birth canal - being told in various forms how to act and what to strive for and how to get it. We didn't have to do it. There was no torture with an audio/video network trained on us or interrogation to see if we were abiding by the "brainwashing" instruction and in any case isn't it "what" is being done and "why" more than the method, providing the method isn't abusive or involuntary that is most important and puts it in a negative light? I, as all of my classmates before joining with Ti and Do were no pushovers in terms of blind sheep following some leader whether parental, pier, governmental or spiritual. Ask anyone who knew any of them before, during or in the case of those who left, after they were in the classroom. I for one left my parents nest at 18 flunked out of college then hitchiked cross country twice throughout three North American Countries, then moved to and was deported from Canada for homesteading way out in the British Columbia bush country, an anti-vietnam war activist, a hippy drug culturist living off of music and odd jobs, living out of wedlock and building a teepee shaped house on a farming commune while peering into many new age and spiritualistic pathways and yet none suited me. Does that seem like someone who ran with whoever had the wildest story. Well, perhaps - I was open minded yet not decided and overly opinionated. To me we are dead if are not that way in this world that is 100 times more than most of us can or care to recognize. My classmates were a bunch of stubborn characters, I can vouge for that.

To my surprise, I felt Ti's mind respond the first or second time I tried it. It was nothing I could put my finger on in an absolute kind of way...it was simply noticably different than any other thought/feeling combo I'd had in my consciousness and since it happened immedieatly after I tried I assumed it was a response. I actually don't recall what I asked or she said but I reported it to Do and he said to the class at a meeting that several said they had felt as I did, that they got something back and that in each case it to him sounded like something Ti would say...in other words the way she would have said it while she was using her human vehicle which Do knew better than anyone else in the world at that point having spent 24/7 side by side with her (without sexuality of any kind) for possibly near to the day twelve years.

I could feel my little "ego" get a razz from the idea that I communicated with Ti, Do's older member. That wasn't the first ego razz I'd experienced. They began more when I was as I saw it, promoted to SAT3, the group of about twelve students (1/4 of the class at that time) who most often worked with Ti and Do in the organizational aspects of the classroom. SAT3 was looked up to by I'd say most in the Classroom though perhaps I'm mistaken about that, though some did express it as something they sought to overcome...jealously of those who had more tasks and more responsible tasks. After all, SAT3 members would be in a room with Ti and Do, getting instructions, some of which they were to pass on to the other members or in answer to member questions and they at times would be engaged in projects the rest of us in the class didn't know about until sometime later and they at times would be called on to do jobs that seemed to have more responsability associated or put them more in the limelight. For instance one project involved working on a screen play in development for a few years, dealing with realtors because me moved so much and most always leased, or buying a new horse, as Ti and Do called cars to name just a tiny few of the tasks. And at times they would be laughing up a storm. We could hear what was going on as it was often in the same  building (home) what we called a "craft". So yes, I experienced some jealousy. In fact on two seperate occasions, unrelated to the exact time when I might be feeling such jealously (that by the way wasn't that severe), Ti walked by me and said I looked green. I asked her once what that meant and she said, "you just look green". It was only a few years ago that I realized that she saw my envy, my jealously. I don't know that for sure but I'm told some people can see auras. Ti never said she saw aura's. In fact Ti never said anything about herself I can recall. It was always about the task at hand though she wasn't without character and on many occasions she would get on with laughter. One time I recall she really laughed up a storm. Something had come up in the news about the Shroud of Turwin, you know the cloth that some say was used to wipe Jesus' face when he was carrying the cross to his execution site, that they say left an imprint of his face on it, perhaps more of an imprint than had it been a "normal" person? She thought it was hilarious that all this fuss was being made over as she said, "Jesus' snot rag".

Now regarding my ego and/or jealousy, I don't want to be overly hard on myself - don't want to be portraying myself as sufferring in this regard or that it was entirely inappropriate to feel this "desire". After all there is a thin line between jealously and honest healthy thirst. I certainly had both. I wanted to be with my older members. I didn't want to miss one word. It's not that I wanted what SAT3 members had in place of any of them. I just wanted to be there the same as they. Yet that meant that I did not trust that where I was was in fact what I needed.

I remember one day I felt something like a switch go off in my head and I said to myself...I've got to stop this yearning for what I don't have...I've got plenty of ways I can show the Next Level I want to be on their crew, want to learn my lessons, want to grow by, so I needed to stop whining and just do the work. This really came down to doing the things that my brain/vehicle thought were insignificant, yet that was part of my ego that needed to be overcome as ego is what brought lucifer out of his classroom experience in a previous civilization on Earth.

Isn't it funny how today is Martin Luther King day and today on the radio I listened to a sermon he gave where John and James Zebedee asked Jesus if they could, in his kingdom sit on Jesus's left and right hands. Jesus went on to illustrate a lesson from that, that perhaps every human being wants most of all, to be something, to be important in some way, to be special, to be as Martin said, the Drum Major of something. Hillary Clinton wrote a book in which she said..."I just want to run something". For many of us who don't so call succeed in business in some fashion to include some religious institution perhaps the last ditch effort we can easily come by to "lead" or "run" or be the head honcho is to have children that can be our followers like it or not for them.

But I was far from wanting followers. I didn't want that responsiblity. That was work but it was rather instinctually programmed, perhaps in all of us to want to be special in some way and that is most apparant when others are looking up to us, and if that isn't acheived then it can even flip to wanting publicity of any kind and could be a large part of the basis of someone going into a school and shooting a bunch of people, even stopping mid way to mail a letter to the media so they wouldn't miss their idea of being special, acknowledged in quite a warped form of special. And of course one could say, this was bred into us by generations of genetic overlording - spare the rod, spoil the child, children should be seen but not heard and it was even moreso lorded over females or minority races or outcasts or diseased or poor. So it's not any of these fault. It's not my fault that I had this desire in my core. Yet in the Next Level as they are real people with real tasks and tasks that can have much greater ramifications to others - especially to those of less developed strata's, if they act on their ego - wanting to be special then they will be less objective. The older members don't like mistakes from that kind of selfishness so they see to it that we abolish it before we are accepted into membership. You see, it's a real place with lots of activity and continuous lessons and challenges.

One time Ti gave each of the classmates a note that Ti wrote that in a few words described what we had left to do that would, as Ti and Do described, "keep us off the spacecraft". This was over 8 years into the classroom when she presented us with this.

My list had three things on it. 1) A little too pleased with self (2) Likes to be seen as something special and (3) tends to be sarcastic with humans (how we spoke to those outside the classroom, which by the way, although there was a type of derogatory nature to things I'd say at times, like when a restaurant cook I was the assistant to (when we had jobs) would start to yell and talk down to people and use crude expletives, I'd sometimes say something to them, which enraged them more and even caused me to lose my job a time or two. I didn't feel or think superior in anyway. It's just that what I'd say would at times have a sarcastic edge - like a know it all might come across. Yes, some and I imagine most, if not all of us felt special by being selected by the Next Level yet we knew that we all had weak areas galore though we were working on them, though it often felt like our headway on our own shortcomings were at a snails pace, the same as was the case with anyone in or out of this Ti and Do classroom. But the point is that I saw lots of evidence of mutual respect for those inside and outside the classroom. I learned later that those outside the classroom were potentially just as much in their own classroom. It just wasn't quite as focused and therefore accellerated as they frequently had multiple distractions for their time and energy - outlets for emotions, not under quite the microscope and often distracted or torn in so many directions by family and friends and events and employers, on  and on so that the lessons often came harder when they did come and were often missed altogether or were worked on in therapy for years.

I can't say when Ti gave these lists out but know she gave out a bunch. I thought I understood them at first but later after I left realized I didn't. I took the sarcasm the hardest not thinking of myself in that light - feeling justified in the ways I spoke back to people when they were in my face and it's not like everything I did was wrong in this regard, but what was most wrong about it was the fact that I wasn't in the position of trying to help or correct others. I was in the classroom to work on myself. They might have deserved it but I was not their teacher and they didn't ask me to be, so I was simply exercising my ego.

Perhaps about 2003 (having left the class in 1994) I even thought Ti was wrong  - that I didn't want to be "seen as something special", I wanted to BE something special...and why not, why wouldn't I...however if I really wanted to BE something special then I would have worked for it. It was far more illusionary than that...I just wanted to "be seen" as something special. In other words I wanted the praise of others. I wanted other to look at me and think, "wow he's special". I still get a glimmer of that - like after delivering this information, not right away, I'll have this thought of replaying my delivery of a piece of information and imagining hearing in my head, as if others were talking about me while I was not there saying..."wow, he is something else". I get that after a musical performance as well. I'm not proud of having those thought's but I recognize that's not really me but I take responsability for them and must and when I hear them I quicly run them off as the discarnates they represent. I'm sure some linger in that thinking for indefinite periods.

In any case, in the classroom with this attitude to work on at one point the recognition of this jealously came to a head in me, It went off like a trigger in my head and I buckled down to doing the tasks I had and doing them the best I could and tried to stop wanting to be in or with SAT3. And it was interesting that I believe I did that successfully. It was simply deciding to do it as it is with many of our habits or addictions. It was the "just do it" action as they exemplified by the Nike sneakers at their departure time in 1997.

But regarding their choice of "departure" from this world via taking it upon themselves to put their physical bodies to sleep permenently - death. It wasn't suicide, not in the common definition though Do was willing to describe it as such on his farewell video. It wasn't suicide because it was not out of anger or as an escape nor to try to make another like a parent or someone feel bad or to get back at someone or to avoid facing failure in business or to enact revenge upon another.

For years Ti and Do and after Ti left, Do in consultation with Ti while she was outside her body considered what else they had to do in this world, having tried to talk to people in every which way repeatedly and no one wanted to hear them or consider that they may very well be what they are expecting - pertaining to Christians who say they are looking for the "Second Coming". They had considered many ways of leaving the planet and attempted a few. They at one point thought...perhaps Ti's older member in a spacecraft was waiting for Ti and Do to set the time and place for departure, so they did and it was a no show. Ti said she felt like she had egg on her face and if that discouraged anyone from continuing in the class so be it. And as it turned out some did leave shortly thereafter. And there was another no show after Ti was outside her vehicle. Then we considered leaving by our own hand as early as 1990. We sold everything in houses we had accumulated and bought travel trailers, popups and tents and went to the dessert and began fasting, first on nothing and then Do added water. We had the expectation that the Next Level might pick us up or that we would lose our bodies right there. When I pulled myself into my bunk each night with no food, thus very hard to muster energy, though we did stay quite active during that fast, I felt like when I curled up in my buck perhaps I would not wake up. Do called that fast off at the end of the second week.

So I started doing more than I was assigned. I began to vacuum regardless of whether it was necessary. I didn't know if it was necessary. My eyes didn't see dirt or I easily explained it away. I was in my head all the time so all else almost didn't exist. And I began to dust and do any little chore that might be needed that I, until then didn't want to do. Oh, I did them but only as a part of the chore I was assigned. Now I was doing it voluntarily and what happened to me was I enjoyed doing so and would look over at SAT3, as at that time we were in a White Rock Lake in Dallas, TX house (actually the last house where Ti was living through her chosen human vehicle - and Ti's ashes were spread into that lake, but it wasn't made into a ceremony for the entire class).

Perhaps I was in this mindset for a week until I was asked by Do if I wanted to join SAT3 to which I said..."sure!!" and wow was I happy.

From that point on in "appearances" I grew in stature in the classroom. I was with Ti and Do with SAT3 and I was being included in real estate deals as we were always moving so always were brainstorming on what kind of house to find and where and LGGody who was used for his age, white hair and business savy, having been a successful rancher for most of his life before joining some 40 years became my partner.

I was given privileges others didn't have. I was trusted to drive people to work and then take the car to my job by myself. I could have just drove off in our cadilac to start a new life. One classmate did that once with a certain car. I was approved to drive without a check partner. I was assigned tasks of helping members who were having different problems. I was partnered with a number of classmates who had once left the class and returned. I reported directly to Do what I experienced as their partner. It wasn't like a snitch though I suppose one could see it that way. I just didn't feel that and those I was assigned to help knew why I was assigned their partner. Few if any of anyone's problems were a complete secret. We had meetings where we'd expose our view of our own shortcomings and part of it was to come up with solutions. I could go on and on with all I was given and my relationship with Do bloomed to where I began to feel I knew how he thought. I was often proven wrong but then other times I did please him in learning Next Level thinking.

But all the while I wasn't as focused on the task, learning to be an instrument of Ti and Do, (though I certainly did at times honestly feel that way), but the other part of me that when I saw I'd push aside (as we did with lots of discarnates or negative thoughts) still had hold of me and it all came to a head at the time of the Branch Davidian massecure.

I was sitting watching it live on TV when the ATF/FBI set those men, woman and children on fire. I was in the craft where Do and his helpers Jnnody and Lvvody were also quartered and was with Srrody as my partner. Srrody and I had been called to come there as we were engaged in some project but we became fixated on the event in Waco, Texas, as we had been following it closly as a classroom too. We were horrorfied by the event but Do said, he's got to hand it to those followers of David Koresh. They believed til the end. They were willing to put their lives on the line for that belief and he wondered if we would have that kind of dedication and he even began to wonder if we needed to somehow provoke the authorities to do us in. Maybe the civilization had become so rotten that no one cared about anyone, what they said, or who they represented, in our case Jesus Family returned, unless there was some preceived threat attached. He wondered if we should get guns and not load them. I remember thinking...wow, what if Do tested me by asking if I'd kill someone and I felt like that would have been a major hurdle. Do said we'd never be asked to do anything to hurt anyone else. That's the way Lucifer works - justifying the manipulation and use of others as pawns for his agenda. I thought...phew! I'm glad I don't have to face that. To Do there was nothing he wasn't willing to consider Ti (now outside her body) might not ask or require of him.

I went back to my job after that Waco event. I was a programmer and it was so, so hard to stay focused on my job, especially then. We had been preparing written materials and video's for public release. I was chosen with Jwnody to be on the video series after anyone who wanted to was tried out which naturally flattered me. I was called upon to do certain projects when it involved the Bible, which was never used as a study tool, as I became one of the most knowledgeable students on the New Testement - the part attributed to what Jesus said. We never had any requirement to read the Bible and only on a few very isolated times did we have a Bible lesson - twice pertaining to the Book of Revelations. On those times Do offerred some insights on certain meaning but it was never really thought of as an essential lesson step. It was simply history though it was amazing how much real information was preserved and Do said that the Next Level had to work very hard to keep that material from being completely distored or eliminated. I wondered how the Next Level did that. Now, their having left I can see more of how distortions slip in.

So one day during a break from programming when I used to take frequent walks around the business to loosen up from the energy I felt coming into me from the electronics and the thoughts about the Next Level and how we could move faster as a classroom ( Ti and Do had encouraged us all along to help move ourselves faster, to surface the things we needed to work on, to learn stragegies to have better control over our vehicles to mostly control our own thoughts to protect us from all the discarnates that would turn our eyes, to include the discarnate the next level allowed to be around us, even moreorless assigned us to be our nehemesis), I started talking to Ti, again then outside her body.

But it wasn't really talking. It was pleading and I began to get bolder and bolder and even demanding. I wanted to do a task like Do's, like Jesus, I said. I wanted to be challenged. I was tired of this easy stuff. The serpent within me was finally showing it's face. I was now challenging Ti or letting my vehicle be used to challenge Ti. It was stupid in some ways, as there were times past when I was shown that the great controls I had over my vehicle - stopping thoughts of sensuatilty before they registered in my head - learning to see them coming and "nipping them in the bud" as we said, was not as strong as I thought. I saw that Ti could seemingly open the flood gates and I could be subdued by the discarntates. Do explained that the Next Level had set up our environment, our cocoon and so we were like babies that were tender. In that sense compared to what many humans experience in hardship, we didn't have. We certainly had hardships humans didn't have as well, and we had certain challenges that were greately accellerated - being with different partners all the time, people that we had little to no chemistry with thus were like hitting one another's heads against one another all the time. In the human world few would tolerate a partner or friend that didn't complement them in some way. Yet because we were inch by inch elimnating all things human, having had major periods of sleep overcoming (never could do without and still function), food overcoming (mostly likes and dislikes, portions, fats, sweets, times to eat and quantity tests), past overcoming - relationships to families, emotional overcoming - wanting to be hugged and physically cared for, sexual overcoming - that entailed body and mind disciplines and of course the one I'm focusing on here, ego overcoming - working to reduce our own self confidence so to graft onto the new vine as reprsented by the chain of mind or Links as we called Ti and Do and life overcoming - not seeking to "save our lives" in this world at the expense of losing our "life" in the next as Jesus said so clearly in so many, many ways.

Well as a result of that request, plea, demand, challenge to Ti, it wasn't even a day, perhaps not even hours before the flood gates were opened and how they manifest was in terms of sensuality. I was overcome with sensual thoughts and feelings and images/visions. I was no match for this force I newly felt. My body was brought to an orgasmic state in moments and without touching myself and it occured repeatedly. I had no control anymore it seemed. I hid it for a while but I withdrew my participation as I had been and Do finally asked me how I was and I told him and I explosed my misdeeds to the classroom, a regular practice we had of keeping above board on our "slippages" as we called them. Giving into sensuality was considered one of the most serious offenses that was grounds to be asked to leave the classroom. I don't think anyone was asked to leave. There were others on occasion that gave in and exposed it but I was not getting control. It's like I lost part of whatever mind I had, either by giving in as I did or in that Ti knew I needed to leave the classroom, that I wasn't being honest with myself and had become arrogant in my false sense of self worth and importance so as I see it I was being flushed out, that is unless I somehow repented and saw what was going on and asked for help which as wierd as it sounded I did not do. It's like I was a phony and it finally came to a head. Now I don't really think I was a phony. I just didn't recognize the ego trap and it showed that my mind, my connection to Ti and Do, though present had not grafted well enough to see this aspect that would keep me off the craft because of it's self centered nature, what in large part we were trying to overcome.

After the fact I saw many hints of this in me, me being as all humans, a composite of influences/discarnates who are drawn to us from birth to build us into who we become.

It was nearly a year since I first sucumb to sensuallity that Do asked me to take on a leadership role partnered with Mllody and I told him for the first time that I couldn't because I would be a hypocrite at which he asked what I wanted to do and I said I had to leave and he said, "you want to get more objective" which I didn't understand but was apparant later. So I was given $600 and an airplance ticket to another x-members house where I re-started my life and did not look back much, that is until March of 1997 when they layed down their lives.

hello,

I was passed your question. I was with Ti and Do dedicated for 19 years.

So, castration - yes a big and potentially confusing issue and there is a long detailed answer that I need to document to be thorough but in short the idea was first expressed....well in actuality, though Ti and Do did not teach us directly from the gospels of Jesus, it started with Jesus in four ways:

1) love god with All - heart, soul, mind and strength
2) adultery was in body and mind - if you lust for another while committed to another you are as guilty as if you had had a physical relationship (Jesus was advancing their self discipline a notch)
3) There are those who make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake
4) if a member, such as one's right or left hand offends you, it's better to cut it off than to sin and go to eternal damnation.

Again Ti and Do did not teach these paraphrased passages but they said they were from the same family as Jesus so they do  form a foundation that if you can't stop yourself from repeatedly sinning however that is defined then you will not necessarily be judged by God harshly should you decide you want to show how much you want to give to God, by even changing your body.

(It's interesting how that is such a big no no, while cosmetic surgery of all kinds is more and more considered an acceptable norm in the human social "cults". Sex change operations are even covered by some insurance programs, as well as enlargements of this or that and perhaps hundreds of other surgeries many go through in the name of vanity and to be more attractive).

(And by the way, Jesus did not say to cut off another's "member" (hand, for instance) because they "sinned", as later became a practice in some countries to punish people for stealing and such. It was purely about us - a right and yes an extreme, just like giving ALL to God is looked upon, but nonetheless a "right" to do with our own bodies what we want that doesn't harm another and is not done for purely negative reasons, negative being that which abuses or harms or murders another)

So how did it come to pass with Ti and Do?

One day Do met with the males of the group. This was only time he ever did just meet with one gender. He said he had to expose that he's had a "nocternal emmission". We as students tried to maintain celebacy of mind and body around the clock, thus tried to protect ourselves from sex dreams by instructing our body to wake up should a sex dream start. However, many sex dreams begin because of tiny mental indulgences that build up hormones in the body and eventually need release thus what has been termed a wet dream. Do taught us not to feel guilty about having them but to use them to instill better discipline and consider whatever happens at night like a relief value should such occur.

At this meeting with Do he then went on to explain that he was considering having the operation and that he'd already reseached it. (We had a registered nurse in our team who worked full time for an surgeon who routinely did orchectomy's on those with testicular cancer, in which she was his assistant for much of a year having had a previous history in nursing).

Do said he had no instruction to proceed but did have instruction to express it to the males as to castrate a female is a much more complicated act and with much more serious ramifications that could even threaten one's life, while with the males, it's almost as if God designed the human male to be able to have a quick and easy end to being a reproductive person as is demonstrated with animals all the time.

This was in around 1990 already  14+ years for all those there at the time that we were together with Ti and Do. Many of the males certainly wanted to be rid of the sexual urges they still had to deal with. I mean it is always a good mental will power developer to fight off thoughts of sensuality but it also clouds one's objective judgement when for instance doing a task with a female in my case that I might have found attractive to where I might not be a good task partner as I could be had I not been hormonally attracted. In other words I might give in to another's ideas and even be tempted to fall off the wagon so to speak in our celebacy conviction.

So all the males considered the idea and from that not too long after one member decided to leave us.

Time passes, over a year and I have a long personal story to tell about that but during that time a few (actually 3)  petititioned Do to allow them to have the operation. Do did not bring it up again in a meeting. He did not do it either. He put it on hold nad it seemed it was a mind exercise to consider it as that is a way to front someone with what otherwise they may want to distant themselves from or use as a criteria to change direction realizing that they are not willing to give their "all" - totally trusting Do in this caes, the current representative from the One True Kingdom of God/Heaven what we called TELAH - The Evolutionary Level Above Human.

Do finally told the 3 zealots to hold off on asking more until he had a chance to consider it at his own pace which meant to talk to Ti his older member about it, who by then was no longer in her physical body - she had died by then - another long story.

Then one day Do called myself and srrody (one of the 39 who layed down their lives) and he said he got instuctions that he should not stand in our way but that he wanted to be sure we had it done right. He had aleady learned that few doctors would do such an operation in the U.S. when there was no disease and Mexico was ricky so he and the nurse (lvvody) and another helper (jnnody) set up a sterile room and srrody and I flipped a coin for who would go first. Srrody went first and I remained his partner afterwoulds and he was one of the 39. We had a problem with the operation and took srrody to a hospital where they easily solved it but Do was very upset at the problem and at one point said he wanted us to turn him into authorities...to which his close circle at that time to include me adamantly objected and that passed an srrody was fine and happy as can be and is on one of the exit videos. He's a skinny little redhaired fellow.

About a year later I left, another big long story not to escape "laying down my life" though - for other reasons, one of which took the shape of my giving into sensuality with myself - I allowed thoughts to overpower my discipline to maintain celebacy. When I wasn't regaining control I eventually told Do I had to leave and he understood and said to me..."you want to get more objective".

I was very close to Do. He is a wonderful soul in many ways, none of which have come out yet but I will tell many stories that will point it out. He was not like any of those we hear about in the news and did not have an evil or deceitful bone in his body. That's a fact!

So when I left, partially because of my leaving as had I had the operation perhaps I wouldn't have lelft, he chose to have it himself and as his students were wanting to be like their older member and he did not want to stop them from seeing him as their mentor and "father" he allowed whoever wanted to, to have the operation. Some members had little problems with sensuality so no need for them to have such an operation. So another 4 members had it done.

I hope this answers your questions.

If you want more information there are various places to get it as you found and use them all, but where I am putting most that I write is on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sawyer and/or NowPublic.com

I will post this in both of these places in case others have the same questions.

sincerely,

sawyer aka swyody